Comments on: Apple deletes Mac antivirus suggestion

Apple removes statement to customers urging them to use antivirus software, saying that Macs are safe "out of the box."

[Heebee Jeebies]

Apple what a load of crap! The Mac is no more safe than the PC. If it was really so much better then why has Apple had to release so many patches? Because it is every bit as flawed as the PC, they just have more ignorant spew swallowing customers.

Now to be fair here it seems like Apple has had more patching to do since they moved to Intel processors.

Robert

[NukemAll]

The only reason Apple makes a half hearted comment in support of AV Software is because they will loose support for the AV products industry. Who knows where the Malware comes from? Truth be known the AV industry knows exactly where it comes from... If you can't tell I'm very skeptical about the obtuse AV Industry. 10 million botnets can't be wrong... Just another way to get into your pocket. I've been a Windows Consultant for years... Windows is full of holes like swiss cheese. Do yourself a favor and buy a MAC, even though its proprietary, it's a much better OS stability wise as well as Security wise.

NukemAll

[medezark]

Mac's complete invulnerability to any system attack aside, and noting that both Apple and Microsoft have "borrowed" their best ideas from each other or other sources, and that Apple's OS rests mostly on the work of the open source community and not Apple's own resources, and that the Apple OS is tied to a single vendor's hardware, and that the cost premium of Mac OS is not justified by the actual production costs of the Mac OS . . . . beh. This is all another load of meh. I've worked on Mac's, licensed Mac's from other vendors (back in the late 90's), the Apple Lisa, Commodore computers, TRS-80's, IBM PC's, IBM PS2's, AIX systems, AS 400 systems, Windows 3 - Vista, Ti-99, Etc.

With the exception of a small handful of true self-replicating worms (Blaster Virus, anyone), the vast majority of ALL malware / virus infections require some level of complicity on the part of the user (opening a strange e-mail, surfing the web for penguin on llama pr0n, believeing that a web pop-up window has scanned your computer and found viruses), and even the most virulent worms could have been stopped in their tracks if the patches that had been released prior to the initial attacks had been uniformly applied. Except of course, the first real worm, Animal (1975), which self-replicated accross Univac systems, because it was just so much fun!!. The first virus to make it's way onto home computers was the Elk-Cloner virus, (1982, infected Apple 2's)

[M C]

Much.

Ado.

About.

Nothing.

This only proves that CNet has become irrelevant.

[SGWB]

So how many Mac users missed the news that OSX hosts have shown up in botnets?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2006/03/when_macs_attack.html
In that case the worm exploited a security hole in PHP. I bet some web site admins thought they didn't have to worry about viruses because the OSX platform was "immune". Well guess what; It doesn't matter how iron clad your OS is when your applications are riddled with holes. OSX may well be secure out of the box, but possibilities open up once you start slapping on applications and enabling new services.

[spamophobe]

wow. so many people are just missing the point entirely. i don't recall ever seeing in the text that apple suggested that any individual use multiple types of av software; they were simply suggesting that it would be good if several different av apps were to be used widely, so that any attempt at malware distribution would have difficulty getting through to ALL users.

[MOBUKU]

How do you know your Mac is NOT infected if you haven't bothered to even scan your computer?

That's kind of like saying you don't need to go to the doctor for a check-up, because the last time you were there you didn't have cancer.

I own a small computer services business. We do plenty of virus removals for Windows PCs but also get our fair share of Macs since we started advertising the service on our website. We scan all Macs that come in through our doors and find plenty of malware. Lol just yesterday I deleted 3 discrete DNS hijackers from an updated Tiger iBook.

If there are no viruses for OSX then why are there so many Apple antivirus products on the market? What are the definition patterns that get downloaded daily - just bandwidth filler? Why do I keep finding viruses on Macs?

Keep up the good work Apple - you are keeping cybercriminals happy! And it's been GREAT for my business too.

Sincerely,
XP / OSX /Ubuntu user running AV on all his machines

[Penguinisto]

"How do you know your Mac is NOT infected if you haven't bothered to even scan your computer? "

Internal tools to check system state (top, ps), open network connections (netstat), and external tools (like your router/firewall appliance).

Your point?

[jinx101a]

@MOBUKI: Great post, I agree with your sentiments fully. You have a reasonble outlook on this topic.

@Penguinsto: None of those tools can catch well crafted malware with any certainty. I could run netstat on Windows 95, doesn't mean much, especially if the malware is intellegent enough to not activate until a trend of inactivity has been found. Your router doesn't protect you if you invite the malware in by initiating the connection, it can only protect you from incoming attacks. MOBUKI's point is valid, if you don't scan your system, you can't say that you haven't acquired malware of some kind. We had 2 MacBook's at work last month that had Trojan's on them that Symantec found.

[MOBUKU]

Penguinisto said "Your point?"

LOL - every OS has vulnerabilities waiting to be discovered and exploited. Cybercrime is SERIOUS BUSINESS. I guess you missed the 700+ OSX vulnerabilities reported on Secunia, with 3% being unpatched.

Macs look cool and work great (when they want to work) but are not bulletproof. The more market share Apple gains the larger the target on it's back will be. Criminals are already making bank off of unsuspecting Mac users. You've got a pre-9/11 mindset when it comes to security lol - no one is safe - Linux, XP, OSX et al.

<3-
deptOvMOBUKUsekuriyt

[Starscream01]

I had to replace my hard drive on my MacBook because of trojan found in a Mp3 file from an ambiguous "free Mp3 music site"( very dumb of me!). I had the virus scan (McAfee) which detected the the trojan but didn't really do anything to it. When I turn on my Mac, everything was fine but then if I would click on an application I would get the beach ball and it was a flashback of windows PC super slow and the application would never open. Now I have (I don't really know if it's better or not) Norton for mac, I scan my old hard drive and it's clean now with my files and application, and well just take extra precautions on what you download & what pages you surf. Beware!!!!!

[Vegaman_Dan]

AppleProLeo wrote:

"The "real PC" I was referring to was any Personal Computer that is not running MS Windows "

That doesn't really paint you as being objective and rather taints any comments you may have as being so far biased as to make your comments pro or con as being moot.

"My name id is AppleProLeo is just a counter play on the idiot AppleSuxLeo, "

That also derails any credibility you may have hoped to attain here. It's just a childish trolling attempt that it would appear that the CNET readers here neither care for nor appreciate based solely on the comments received.

[jinx101a]

Good point Vegaman.

[ferretboy88]

Can you build a custom Apple computer and overclock it and play games at full res? Nope, you get to use the computer they give you with the closed system and you walk around with all the same stuff like a bunch of clones like in the Apple ad from 1984.
I am building a water cooled rig right now with 2 graphics card and I'm sure I will have fun playing Crysis and fallout 3. You could install windows on your mac but it will not be as fast as my rig.

[D3vildog699]

Mmm... Fallout 3... :)

Water cooled SLI GPUs? just thinking about the 9800 GTX makes me drool... much less 2 of them

[Penguinisto]

"You could install windows on your mac but it will not be as fast as my rig."

Maybe, but I won't pay near as much to do it, and it'd be worth far more than your rig four years hence. ;)

[D3vildog699]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130420 X 2 = roughly $400 and graphics far superior to any mac...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037&Tpk=INTEL%20CORE%202%20DUO%20E8400 = 180 (roughly with tax

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188033 = $150... again with tax and such

http://www.newegg.com/Store/Brand.aspx?Brand=1666&name=Corsair-XMS-Series = $70... ""

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136260 = (WD raptor 10000 rpm cause its my personal favorite :)) little spendy but def worth it) = $250

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817128021 = $130... ""

Case is personal choice by far.. normally looking at 'bout 100-150, mine is: CoolerMaster Mystique

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001310 = $250

totals out to like 1500+ cost for case... thats with tax.. pic any mac in the price range with even close the power that has...

Penguinisto... your point? The life of the computer is completely up to the Owner and how they treat the part.. at least if my HDD goes bad in a 5 years i can swap out only the HDD...

Keep in mind this was a simple build from the start.

[faboumen]

A water cooled rig. That's nice. What are the obstacles to overclocking a Mac? Its also a PC-even a x86 arch PC. In any case, PC's hobbled by Windows are good games designed for Windows. OK, so you have Windows on your PC for games. Now make it useful and safe for everything else and create a dual boot with a UBUNTU cd.

[D3vildog699]

You void the warranty by opening it up and overclocking a MAC... plus you have to use apple hardware anyways so you have to hack OSX to get it to run what you want.. which is illegal.

[lkrupp]

So once again this thread, as they all do, degrades into a mudslinging flame war between the Mac and PC zealots. Will it never end. I guess not.

[D3vildog699]

Arguments are fun, you should see the ones we have at work :) Its amazing how many people didnt know about the patches apple put out compared to Windows.. :S

Argument is good, it creates competition and better products, cult loyalty to any one company is absurd

[southwesteight]

EXCUSE THE UPPERCASE BUT I WAS HOPING SOMEBODY WOULD BE KIND ENOUGH TO VOLUNTEER AN ANSWER TO MY HUMBLE QUESTION???

I am a new Macbook Pro and MacMini user - and obviously I am very pleased with these reliant, efficient and pretty pieces of equipment.

HOWEVER, with regards to security - I understand the argument about the lack of Mac specific viruses rendering the use of anti-virus software pointless, but what about the possibility of my system being hacked remotely by some depraved individual? What about invasion of privacy, spyware, infiltration, violation, that type of thing? :-) Basically, am I not in need of a firewall or an electric fence or something?

IS there still a possibility my system can be hacked? Or am I unnecessarily paraniod thanks to the media?

MUCH OBLIGED.

[D3vildog699]

Every computer owner should have a firewall besides the horrid ones that come with from the manufacturer. I use Webroot.. not sure if they have one for your Mac...

The firewall will block ports that are known for hacking and will tell you when something is trying to get in (the good ones will). Since you are using a Mac, you are realistically safe from any known attacks that could hit you as long as your firewall is on. Its a courtesy to other users to have some AV to scan outgoing files and the likes. You can find a free AV on this site.. AVG is good, but in the end its your choice. Just don't be unrealistic and think you are safe from everything the world can throw at you cause your using a mac.

:) Good luck with your computer sir.

[jinx101a]

Any system can be hacked. If you practice due dillegence on any system you can minimize your chances to very, very slim. Your router protects you, if you run a firewall (software or hardware) that helps to protect you. Further, it cannot hurt to run virus checking software. It's one more thing you can do to protect yourself, even if you run a Mac.

Honestly, you're probably more vulnerable from 3rd party software flaws than you are from OS flaws. As long as you keep those pieces of software patched along with your OS and do some combination of the above you'll be ahead of the curve. That coupled with Mac having smaller market share and you're in a pretty safe boat. I run 1 MacBook and 1 Vista machine (XP before that) and I haven't had a virus on any ever. Most of protecting yourself is just practicing a little due-diligence.

I compliment you, you're asking the right questions. Don't let the trolls on both sides deter you from protecting yourself.

[faboumen]

your concerns are moot due to the astronomical remoteness of the possibility. don't sweat it. I have been using Mac OS X since the beta (2000) and I have never encountered any security problem-viruses or unauthorized entry from a remote source. It's just not a realistic fear with either Mac OS X or ubuntu.

[faboumen]

It sounds like you are trying to find some kind of mis-step by Apple here, when it looks like they are simply improving the accuracy of their support information. This is clearly due to a lack of proper perspective. It is as though you think companies other than Microsoft, should be at all concerned with Windows Viruses.

There is, for all practical purposes, no such thing as a "Computer" virus. Computer Virii such as Malware, Spyware, and Ad-ware are entirely and exclusively a Windows Phenomena. In fact, since Apple discontinued support for OS 9 and its predecessors, even the term Computer Virus has become obsolete. There are ONLY Windows Viruses.

Mac OS X is Unix, and all Linux distrobutions are Linus Torvald's implementation of Unix. Unix systems do not allow for execution of arbitrary code, by design. Therefore, these operating systems are not susceptible to viruses--by DESIGN. That's why the "overwhelming" number (ALL! 100%! EVERYSINGLEONE!) of virii written in the past 10 years have been EXCLUSIVELY for the Windows operating system, which is susceptible BY DESIGN (bad design, that is.) It is the only operating system that still allows such shenanigans as the execution of code without the user's expressed permission.

It amazes me that this is still a question in the minds of reporters of tech news. I think a decade ought to be enough time for you people to get up to speed on this issue--10 years in tech is like 50 in any other industry! Let me summarize: Apple took out-of-date information off their website because viruses can ONLY be written for the Windows operating system. You can't write a virus for an operating system specifically designed not to allow it. Sheesh.

Maybe an analogy will help. In the world where information is currency, and the Internet is the vehicle of commerce, Mac OS 9 and Windows are mobile homes that had to be retrofitted to act as Banks. UNIX is, in this analogy, equivalent to Fort Knox. It was designed with security from its foundation. No retrofitting needed. It's not, I suppose, impossible to heist Fort Knox. It's just so impractical, that discussing it is rather silly.

In this analogy, all Linux distributions are like banks built from the same blue prints as Fort Knox (i.e. UNIX). And, Mac OS X has only its name in common with Mac OS 9. It is actually UNIX with a nice graphic user interface--i.e. Fort Knox with a nice paint job. Mac OS 9 and its predecessors were correctly shuttered and closed down. Windows should have been too, but Microsoft decided otherwise. It remains a retrofitted mobile home.

Hence, Windows Viruses.

[D3vildog699]

... uhh... sure dude...

[Dalmatian28]

Why bother!!!! Do you know any idiot out there that would write virus or Trojan for Mac OS/ Linux rather than Windows??? If attacker is smart enough to write software he/she is smart enough to figure out that it is much easier to succeed on OS that has 90% of the market. Any idiot can write safe OS for the market segment where none of the hackers are interested in!!! You don't have to be smart to figure that one out...it is pure logic!!!!

[cyclonica1980]

I am just going to come right out and say it. MACS SUCK. I dont say it to be a PC fanboy. I say it because I own both and I have more problems with the Mac than with my PC running Vista. Considering that all macs use last years hardware and all their products are horrifically overpriced I do not know what more else to say. "so cycloncia why did you buy a mac?" For my work as a graphic artist. I have to say most of you people who own macs no offense I cannot believe you people buy into this ridiculous social movement that this company has started. This computer sucks! Windows is crappy yes but it gives me less problems. OSX is the most overhyped piece of garbage ive ever used. Apple has now replaced my macbook pro THREE TIMES!!! Come on people it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out crappy hardware when you see it and use it. Apple claims the geforce 9600 is the latest and greatest. Wrong. FYI to the Mac fanboys on this page heres a wake up call for you. You know why your precious Macs have only a few viruses? BECAUSE NO ONE USES THEM!!!! I cannot wait to get my promotion so I can scrap this piece of junk and sell it off to one of you people. I think if steve jobs started telling you mac fanboys to go jump off a bridge and start a mass suicide to boycot Windows I think you all would do it. I seriously cannot wait for a response to this message.I look foward to reminding you mac lovers (and myself saddly) how much your precious Macs SUCK. :)

[DarkHawke]

Holy CYA, Batman! Now that the left hand of marketing has been made aware of what the right hand of engineering has been doing, I guess we now know which one is higher in the cult! ;)

[wfstecko]

I've been a network administrator in a number of companies during the last 15 years. All of the companies had mixed environments consisting mostly of Windows with some Macs, as well as Unix, Novell, and AS/400 servers. I've attended a number of security courses, and been assured that viruses and other malware for macs and unix do exist. However, I've never personally encountered any, nor have I met anyone who has. Interestingly, a penetration testing course I took a couple of years ago was taught by someone who used a Mac notebook as his preferred tool of choice. Before that I thought linux would be a hackers first choice.

Personally, I know very little about Macs, as I've never had to do much more with them other than set them up on a network and never hear from the user again. I guess that will change, as I'm buying my first Mac tomorrow. I'm taking up video editing and 3D animation as a hobby, and I really don't want to spend most of my time "configuring" my new box just to get it running the way I like. Yes, in the last year and a half Vista has left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I don't appreciate spending several thousand dollars on a new system with a fast processer and a ton of RAM only to find I have to work at half the speed that I had on my old XP box.

Do I need antivirus software? I don't know. But I'll install it anyway. Maybe I'm just a little paranoid because of all my Windows virus experiences.

[ferretboy88]

I was going to buy a new mac but the only option was what Steve Jobs wanted you to have. A super glossy screen. I tried to watch a movie in the apple store and I could see myself in the picture. I guess if you stay home with the lights off it would be ok but not very many Apple fans are happy about this. Closed minded company. Lets take away the firewire from the macbook. Great idea. All praise Steve Jobs.

[RTFM]

My handle is better! Read The F'ing Manual you cretins.

[druidlens]

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.