Comments on: Fixing a busted IT research system

James Foley, chairman of the Computing Research Association, says major trouble stalks the nation's technology education pipeline.

Too idealistic

While Dr. Foley is well-intentioned, his argument that computer science is really about requirements analysis and design is idealistic. Computer science doesn't really know what it's about, and that's the problem.

I disagree

Computing is 100% about being able to translate the needs of a user into a machine-performable routine. It's about managing expectations, educating end-users and investigation techniques to get at the source of a problem.

Spend half a million dollars on a computing system and set a chimp in front of the keyboard and you have a half-million dollar paperweight. Computing students need to understand that the job is 70% pen-and-pencil investigations and 30% computing.

[bsb2007]

Typo or what?

Your first question, "Q: The number of science and engineering Ph.D.s awarded in the United States has been falling, from 23,300 in 1998 down to 24,550 in 2002" seems to show an INCREASE of 1150 new PhDs. This seems to defeat the whole purpose of the article.

I'm no PhD, but that looks like an increase

[http:// The number of science and engineering Ph.D.s awarded in the United States has been falling, from 23,300 in 1998 down to 24,550 in 2002. How big a deal is that decline? |http:// The number of science and engineering Ph.D.s awarded in the United States has been falling, from 23,300 in 1998 down to 24,550 in 2002. How big a deal is that decline? ]

That looks like an increase of 1250 students.

[Tex Murphy PI]

Maybe as a percentage?

Maybe it is as a total percentage they are talking about.

Assuming that the graduation rate of a university goes up over time, a small increase like that isn't "keeping" up with the overall percentage increase in graduates.

[Tex Murphy PI]

It takes a dumb MBA grad to kill a Phd..

by sending the jobs overseas.

It's a fact of life, companies are usually run by MBA graduates - whos only concern is total profit. These "whiz-kids" were not only responsible for exporting the manufacturing base of the United States (which accounts for a large chunk of the trade deficit), but have also managed to offshore IT, Engineering AND Accounting jobs - white collar, vallue-added jobs.

The point of going to college and getting a degree (let alone an ADVANCED degree) is to realize the payoffs of the time, money and effort in the future.

The last time I checked, nobody is stupid enough to spend over $50,000 on an advanced degree - only have their job offshored to Bangalore, India.

What is even more amazing, is how the very same companies who offshored many of their jobs overseas use the lack of IT / Engineering / Accounting graduates as the reason for their offshoring move in the first place!

You just have to love that circular logic!

[betelgeuse68]

I second that "Too idealistic" remark

70% of computing jobs are with IT departments. Perhaps in more idealistic times I would say "so what" but the reality is, IT generally is purely a cost center for companies and many organizations are looking to reduce costs.

Having graduated in '91 and being in the field and working on a variety of projects (having even spent time with this BIG company in Redmond) I would dissuade anyone from entering the computer science field unless they have a tremendous amount of drive and are willing to build up business acumen and/or build up their own brand (including but not limited to themselves, i.e. being an industry guru).

Anything less and it is likely you will find yourself in one of these "heads down" programming positions which get old FAST and are prime candidates for offshoring.

A lot of people who get into computer science tend to be left brain types and a little off the level. Unfortunately this pesonality doesn't lend itself to achieving what I spoke of earlier, i.e. developing an awareness of business and/or marketing oneself.

There was a day when a pure tech play was possible but those days are gone. Commodization of many technologies as well as the prevalence of open source has changed the rules of the game.

If you are young and have an interest in attaining a computer science degree but are not so much interested in the business/marketing side of things, then let me give you another barometer. If you do not have the drive to learn and contribute to an open source project and learn technical minutiae above and beyond your peers my advice would be to find a different field. You have been warned...

Just like manufacturing....

If you are shooting for a job putting lug nuts on wheels, don't complain if your job is given to an unskilled worker.


Likewise in tech, if your ambition is to learn a very narrow field that requires zero face time, don't be surprised if your job disappears.

Computing plus X is a very good way to put it.

What CS skills are really important

When people ask me about going into CS (I have a PhD, have been a prof, have worked in big companies, and even contributed to early Linux kernel dev), I advise them to not get a CS degree but to get a minor instead to augment another major (eng, business, etc.) The skills most people need are not the skills kernel hackers need, and society doesn't need more kernel hackers. The CS skills that are most important today are strategies for solving difficult/intractable problems, translating subjective needs and ideas into objective solutions, the ability to think methodically and in a structured (deterministic) way, etc. These are general skills, and computing machines only made them manifest as software.

IP - the real value

Dr Foley highlighted an important distinction to be made when considering offshore outsourcing: the difference between the programming effort and the system architecture. It would appear "safe" to outsource the massive, labor-intensive programming effort necessary to implement (and provide tech support for) a product. However, the value of a product is in the intellectual property (IP) associated with its architecture and design, and these disciplines should be guarded as carefully as the Coke formula. The question then becomes whether a company can parcel out outsourced work packages in units that are small enough that the IP is not reconstructable from the parts. If I recall Japan lost significant design information when they began outsourcing manufacturing not long ago.

[furl12]

"Cheap" support isn't "cheap" if it wastes my "expensive" time

I?m beginning to realize that sending the ?boring ? jobs abroad and keeping the ?IP? jobs here may be backwards. We should send the work that can be done out of context abroad and keep the ones that require human skills here.

I?ll admit that I?m a little sore today. I?ve just been dealing with one of those Indian boneheads who, to put it as kindly as I can, lacked common sense, not to mention understandable English. As a result of his unfamiliarity the basic facts of western life, I lost the best part of a day?s work, which destroyed any savings anyone thought they made from offshoring the work.

Now I couldn?t care less who does some bit ?architecture and design? as long as it?s properly tested before being inflicted on me. PhD?s are cheap in Bangalore only requires rote memorization there, not common sense or cultural knowledge. If they design screens without an OK button ? and here I speak from bitter experience -- I can reject it just as I would reject a Chinese PC with no ON switch. Let the manufacturers shop around: Maybe they?re smarter in Malaysia or Peru or Mongolia and just as cheap.

[TheMidnightCoder]

Architects from where?

If we allow the off shoring of programming jobs, how will we get our next generation of architects and designers? They currently come from the rank and file of IT. Schools can't teach you to be an architect. It takes considerable experience to truly become an architect. So how do you climb the ladder when they off shored most of the rungs?

[James X]

your right

I actually had the same question. Were do you get tomorrows designers if you are taking away the very jobs which everyone starts off at. I haven?t heard of recent graduate X being hired by company Y to design their new enterprise system and if I did would you really trust the judgment of the company? You gain the experience and insight to design large systems by first being a part of the development of a large system(s) in a lesser role. Perhaps, dare I say it, as a Programmer.

Architects too can be offshored.

Why not?

[Prndll]

hhhmmm well.......

First of all.....
I wonder about the idea of "federally funded" "IT professionals" with PHD's. When you are payed by the governement, you tend to get backed into a corner by the government. This seems to go against the whole idea in the first place.

Secondly.....
When it comes to the idea of engineers and architects, something just seems missing. This article seems to imply that some persue an education in "computer science" first. It seems to me that an engineer should be more concerned with engineering than what might be considered as a "computer science", unless of course you are trying to compete with Bill Gates.

I see a kind of thinking here that seems to be a bit one sided. Computers are tools. Tools to help you do a job. This article also seems to just a bit politically slanted. Almost as if there were things said just for the purpose of sounding good. I read things like this and it is no wonder that things have become the way they are. Just what is so wrong with a programing job? This article is a breif discription of how someone gets the frame of mind that they are better than everyone else. It is also a discription of how close to the inevitable insult the mass of the American public comes to from "elite" snobbery that helps to ruin something this great. It should be pointed out that it only takes one programmer to ALL these overpayed phd's into a panic.

Learning computers is something that everyone really needs to be ingauged in. I do realize that it takes a little something special to design new operating systems and new types of hardware, but on the order of tens of thousands per year? and how many of these American PHD's given to people who live, work, and whatever else in other countries? Ya want to talk to me about the status of the American economy? Especially when such a large number of these people are funded using American tax dollors? (Are we all paying a little bit out of every paycheck to create the high tech cyber-terrorists)(somewhere in the back of my mind...the term "industrial espianage" rattles around)

Is this how the creator of the MP3 format came to be? The format that coincidentally resulted in so many people being arrested and sued??

How much of a PHD did it take to formulate the WindowsXP SP2 extra software (that has a patch aswell)?

I think I like it better my way......

Dr. Foley's motivation

Don't forget that Dr. Foley is backing GaTech and CRA, not the profession. As such, he has to tow the current political correct line, which is that programming jobs should be outsourced so Americans can do the high-paying design and analysis work. As others have pointed out, design and analysis is not entry level work. This political alignment makes it more likely he will bring to more millions to do "research" and educate more CS people who won't find work. People at this level are too far removed from the real world to do anything of practical worth.

Outsourcing

America is the biggest proponent of globalization, outsourcing is part of globalization. So learn how to play the game.

missing point

Mr Foley thinks that USA need to offer better pay
in order to attract well qualified teacher.
Personally I think that teaching is a rotting job and anyone with a technical degree would prefer a
good,well gratificating job elsewhere rather then
waste his/her life to teach unruly and unmotivated student.
The only solution is the one adopted in Italy long time ago which,with all its flaws,it's working really well:allowing teacher to have a second job.
In Italy a teacher can have 2 job and every year
he/she must ask the permission to the head to continue teaching.The head can refuse if he/she thinks this happens by negletting teaching but they rarely do so because they know this is the best way to attract motivated and qualified teacher.
A geek who know he don't have to chose between taching and other careers can well do both for the benefit of both teacher and students

[jerrellt]

Smarts vs. Drive

A point that was made from the article was that "...we do not get into computing or into technology as many of the best and brightest as we need" and that immigrants are being attracted to the CS discipline than most American students.

I personally became involved in Computer Science as early as the 8th grade with curiosity and an enthusiasm to learn more about the subject. I wasn't a 'genius" or an "Einstein", but had a drive to learn and understand computer technology. Right now I'm an IT staff professional at a university and pursuing a master's in technology.

There may be other young people that may want to go beyond the Nintendos or X-Boxes and learn more about IT and other disciplines to compliment their knowledge. Should we tell these people not to bother because they may not have the genes, DNA or birth-smarts to make it in IT? Should they just settle for a McJob instead of an IT career?

Most comments are on track, but still missing the mark

No one has mentioned the defacto age discrimination that has crept into the IT profession. Speaking as someone with a degree in mathematics, physics, and computer science and with major experience with a few fortune 500 companies, including a fortune 10 one; I must state that saving a buck is more on the minds of so-called business professionals than interest in keeping an industry - indeed the country going.

I currently possess a Mc Job not because I lack the ability for analytical thinking and problem solving, but because I got paid too much. And I am not alone. I and others have sufficient background and ability to learn, but we just aren't cheap enough to line the pockets of the CEOs and company board members.

If I sound bitter - well I say I have earned it. However, there is a warning here to anyone who is crass enough to think their profession is immune. Yes, there has been no job for a lifetime for many a year. It is only recently, however, that there is no profession for a lifetime. This weakens the countries ability to carry forward due to ridding ourselves of our best commodity, that is experience.

Some would argue that manufacturing is the same. I say you are right, but so am I. Manufacturing was more in the area of skilled labor, however, we are losing competiveness in that area as well due to our American monetary thinking. Next quarter is no way to run a business, unless you want to run it straight into the ground.

Just where are businesses going to sell their merchandise if we rid ourselves of our diversity of skills and knowledge? Not everyone is suited to be a salesman, business man, doctor, or lawyer! This is the misgided message that is being sent to our youth via the company board room.

Hope everyone is happy!