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October 7, 2009 10:48 PM PDT

Music publishers: 'Copyright should be technology neutral'

by Greg Sandoval
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Composers, music publishers, and songwriters have told federal lawmakers that regardless of whether music is distributed to consumers via TV, DVDs or digital download, they need legislative help to ensure they get their fair share.

Two weeks ago, I wrote a story about how some of these groups want iTunes and other Web music retailers to pay performance fees for downloads of TV shows and films. They also want online music stores to cough up fees for 30-second song previews. Those revelations didn't go over well with many techies.

But to get a better understanding of what the artists want from Congress, I asked David Israelite, president and CEO of the National Music Publishers Association, to forward me a copy of a March 10 letter written to members of the Senate Judiciary Committee by a consortium of trade groups representing songwriters, composers, and publishers. He agreed.

In the letter, signed by Israelite and representatives of such groups as Broadcast Music Inc. (BMI); American Society of Composers, Authors & Publishers (ASCAP); and Songwriters Guild of America, the consortium wrote: "Technology should not be used to strip rights from songwriters, composers and music publishers. The choice of certain audiovisual delivery systems or methods over others should not result in a diminution of creators' rights or royalties."

The group later made this statement: "There is no question that copyright should be technology neutral" and asked Congress to make "a clarification to the copyright law" that specifically says that "the public performing right is implicated in digital downloads" of audiovisual works that feature music.

"There is no question that copyright should be technology neutral. Technology should not be used to strip rights from songwriters, composers and music publishers"
--Music creators wrote in a letter to congress

"We believe Congress intended the current law to be platform neutral," the music consortium wrote to the senators. "The conflicting interpretations demand clarification, for without it, performing right income of songwriters, composers and publishers is seriously threatened."

The lobbying efforts of the songwriters, composerss and music publishers continue.

All of this started with the shift in the way the public consumes media. Songwriters and publishers have for a long time collected performance fees from broadcast TV networks and film studios, but now more and more consumers are watching films and TV shows downloaded to their iPods or laptops, which at this point aren't considered public performances.

A federal district judge court ruled in 2008 that "there is no copyright protection for the public performance right when a work containing music is digitally transmitted for future playing or viewing" the consortium wrote in the March 10 letter.

The music creators have appealed the decision.

How is this the consumer's problem?
To critics, composers, songwriters and publishers are asking for a guarantee that they will get paid for public performances even if there isn't any public performance.

Fred von Lohmann, senior attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an advocacy group for Web users and technology companies, disagrees with the argument that copyright should be technology neutral.

"The Copyright Act has never been technology neutral," von Lohmann said. "The (Digital Millennium Copyright Act's) Safe Harbors only applies to online services. There are areas that apply only to cable and satellite providers. The Copyright Act is always trying to strike a compromise."

He added that music creators already collect other licensing fees, for such things as synchronization rights and he maintains, iTunes or other music retailers shouldn't be responsible for making up losses for music creators.

"The copyright owner is going to get paid," von Lohmann said. "Whether it's called a performance or a reproduction the copyright owner is going to get paid. This is just a turf war between middlemen about who is going to take a piece off the top. The copyright office has tried to broker some sort of solution between the various parties for years with little success.

"We'll get some more guidance from the courts soon," he continued, "but I doubt that will be the last word. As (Israelite's) letter suggests the parties can all go fight it out in Congress now."

Greg Sandoval covers media and digital entertainment for CNET News. He is a former reporter for The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times. E-mail Greg, or follow him on Twitter at http://twitter.com/sandoCNET.
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Add a Comment (Log in or register) Showing 1 of 2 pages (52 Comments)
by Quincy2001 October 7, 2009 11:35 PM PDT
Are they really so interested in royalties off the samples that they would kill the best advertising the internet has to offer? Cripes, with friends like this, we musicians don't need enemies!
Reply to this comment
by daedbird October 8, 2009 9:38 AM PDT
Claiming public performance for 30-second previews is absurd and should not be in their argument-samples should never count.

However, if studios are trying not to pay royalties or other fees they pay for DVD sales for digital downloads, this would be the same as when they tried to not pay writers for streaming or downloaded shows and movies. I am all for songwriters getting the same deal they get for DVDs and CDs now, but that should come from the production company....Does Best Buy pay a songwriter directly when it sells a DVD, or is that built-in to the cost of purchasing the product from the distributor?
by Zoobie October 8, 2009 10:59 AM PDT
If Apple has to pay everytime someone listens to a sample, they'll likely just stop allowing samples. Without samples, total revenues will decline and hurt the lesser-known musicians the most. People will still buy top artists, because they know what they're getting. But I, for one, like to listen to iTunes recommendations for music I've never heard before. Sometimes the recommendations don't match my tastes, but sometimes those 30-second samples open me up to new artists and new styles and I buy stuff I previously would have never considered simply because I'd never heard of them.

Just another item to file in the "what were they thinking" list of music executive decisions.
by Ordeith October 8, 2009 1:10 PM PDT
There is no better way I have found to listen to and discover new music than with a ZunePass.
by Quincy2001 October 8, 2009 11:30 PM PDT
@daedbird -

My thoughts exactly. Digital downloads are reproductions, and the analogies to DVDs are obvious for movies and TV shows. One of the core concepts of a public performance is that the person putting on the performance is profiting from it and therefore share the wealth with those who worked to make it possible. On a digital download, the performance is being staged by the end user using a reproduction purchased from a distributor (e.g. iTunes).
by October 7, 2009 11:59 PM PDT
mmm.... it's pretty much their funeral if they make the music stores jack up prices.....they have pretty big balls to be squeezing consumers who could just as easily illegally download the thing for free. there's only so much people will pay before they turn to that.
Reply to this comment
by redmarine October 8, 2009 1:42 AM PDT
That's so true. I'm only willing to pay for software as long as the price is fair and affordable with no serious DRM or any 'spyware' attached.

But lately the music industry has been a ***** and trying to crack down on BitTorrents and ISPs.
by karpenterskids October 8, 2009 11:57 AM PDT
I agree. We consumers are paying a lot for music as it is...
by Me-Ruud October 8, 2009 12:44 AM PDT
I need to agree, they should realize by now that music is not an inelastic good. If the prices go up, people will go for the free download.

Also:"Technology should not be used to strip rights from songwriters, composers and music publishers. The choice of certain audiovisual delivery systems or methods over others should not result in a diminution of creators' rights or royalties."
What is this about? Technology doesn't strip songwriters, composers and music publishers from their rights. It helps them to gain more rights, to more freely produce and distribute music!
Reply to this comment
by nemetfox October 8, 2009 1:19 AM PDT
Guess what will happen if they start having to pay for 30 second previews? The previews will stop, and people will buy less music.
If the prices for music go up, people will buy less music as well.
Do these people even bother to think before they say such asinine things?
Reply to this comment
by Knightro2 October 8, 2009 9:17 AM PDT
So if they are demanding payment for 30 second previews...where were their gripes back in the heyday of music stores with the long sections of listening terminals where you could listen to a CD that was setup there (like in Virgin Music Mega Stores). It is the same concept...nothing new. Just last night I was looking for a specific Ludacris song on iTunes. I didn't know the name of it. The only way I found it was by the previews. Once I found it...I bought it. If I couldn't preview...I wouldn't have bought anything.
by rapier1 October 8, 2009 11:20 AM PDT
I wouldn't be surprised if those listening booths were covered by ASCAP licenses the same way that jukeboxes and the like are.
by screamapillar October 11, 2009 4:26 PM PDT
That or the rationale for illegal downloading to 'preview' albums will increase in strength. It is already a relatively well documented rationale (too lazy to look for the link but a recent study showed that high downloaders also have more CDs than those less inclined to illegally download, suggesting that it is more about loving music than it is about illegal downloads and/or the preview concept may have more merit than previously thought...)

Anywho... what we do know is previews are advertising (radio, video clips have already shown this). Inhibit the ability to preview and amputate your own business. Almost ALL consumer products have a FREE preview capacity (eg trying on clothes, test drive a car) - why shouldn't music?
by pw1y October 8, 2009 1:29 AM PDT
Guess what, you get what you pay for. If composers can get a teeny tiny payment every time their work is enjoyed by listeners, they are better able to create more great music. Everyone deserves an income for work which is appreciated by the public. End of story.
Reply to this comment
by solitare_pax October 8, 2009 2:49 AM PDT
But lets be fair: Without a 30 second sample that is free, how many songs will you purchase from artists who you previously never knew existed, because their work is not blared out on the radio or TV? If I had to pay to listen to the sample, then I would not bother - I might purchase just the 'most popular' to see if it was any good - and not explore the other tracks on an album to see if there were anything else worthy of purchase.

In the end, these musician and corporations are busy killing the goose that lays the golden egg - for them, that's us, the audience.
by Sausagebiscuit October 8, 2009 4:26 AM PDT
No one deserves to get paid for anything. You only have the right to try and sell your product and hope people will purchase it. Just because people create, doesn't mean they deserve to get paid. That is for the free market to decide.

Before someone says "you don't deserve to get paid at your job?". No I don't deserve it just because I show up at a business and start working. I come to an agreement with the business owner, and sell my services for a predefined wage and set of hours.

All this "I made a song so I deserve to get paid!!" crap is annoying.
by toosday October 8, 2009 4:48 AM PDT
@solitare_pax: How many songs would I purchase from artists I never knew existed? I agree with you: Few if any.

But let's take it a step further: How many songs (other than the singles that are played on the radio) would I buy from an artist that I *did* know should I not be able to listen to a sample? Not very many. If Britney Spears, for example, has a good single on the radio, she may also have a good track on the album that isn't going to be released as a single. Most people wouldn't get a chance to hear that song unless they A.) Paid to stream a sample or B.) Purchased the entire album out of good faith that the rest of the songs would enjoyable. Neither of those seem to be good alternatives.

Also, "Congress technology shouldn't strip them of their livelihood." Someone should make the argument to Congress that technology shouldn't carry the burden of sustaining their livelihood either. Change happens. Innovate or die.
by artsrc October 8, 2009 5:27 AM PDT
Mozart, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven are great - I pay nothing for their work.

Most of my favourite software is free.

The very language you and I use to discuss this is a greatly appreciated work for which no-one pays.

So guess what - what you get is frequently unrelated to what you pay for.

People who make up a great joke don't get protection from me sharing it with my friends. Why can't they get a "tiny payment" when I retell their work?

Effective copyright enforcement in an information technology rich world may depend on the kind of police state we don't think is worthwhile.

The children of Sudan deserve to grow up with good food, health care and safety. If we want the best music maybe we would do better to allow all the people of the world the leisure to express themselves creatively, rather than to support an industry of dubious value. Perhaps the most talented musician of our day is now dying without a chance use their abilities.

So no, not end of story, part of a long and complex debate.
by ddesy October 8, 2009 5:54 AM PDT
If I can't enjoy a 30 second sample freely, which is advertisement, I probably won't buy any music at all. I dislike most of the current popular music and the types of artists that I do listen to rarely get played anywhere.

Those "teeny tiny" payments add up and jack up the price of music, and that is asking to reduce sales. Those same payments don't make someone more creative, either.
by Renegade Knight October 8, 2009 7:15 AM PDT
Guess what. I'm not interested in paying each time I enjoy something. I'm willing to buy it once and if I can't actually buy it once, there is no little teeny tiny payment to be had from me.
by Zoobie October 8, 2009 11:22 AM PDT
I agree with Sausagebiscuit. No one deserves to get paid for anything. If someone makes a better widget (or creates better music, in this case), consumers are willing to pay for it if the perceived value is in line with the asking price--basic economics.

Today, I can go to a retail store like Barnes and Noble, scan any CD, and listen to samples of those tracks to see if I'm interested in making a purchase. Why should buying music over the Internet be more restricted or subject to additional fees?
by rapier1 October 8, 2009 11:24 AM PDT
"Mozart, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven are great - I pay nothing for their work"

Ummm, yes you do. The performances are covered by copyright even if they underlying score is public domain. For example, the Gunter Wand performance of Beethoven's 9th is owned by the copyright holder. As such, every time a radio station plays a selection from it or it is used in a film or television show the proper fees have to be paid.
by umbrae October 8, 2009 6:21 AM PDT
This pettiness is why I just don't buy music anymore. I am not saying I pirate: I just do not buy music. I don't even listen to the radio. I am not sure at what point media industries will release they are alienating and loosing customers.
Reply to this comment
by PixP October 8, 2009 6:52 AM PDT
"the public performing right is implicated in digital downloads" Lol! Can I just turn in a recording of me doing work at my desk in the office and get paid too?!
Reply to this comment
by Pete Bardo October 8, 2009 10:17 AM PDT
Not exactly. First you have to write a song, produce it and include it as the sound track of you doing your work, at your desk, in your office. Before you can get paid, someone has to pay to watch your video. The article's not about the video performance rights but the performance rights of the background music.
by iptofar October 8, 2009 6:57 AM PDT
To bad engineers don't get paid the same way. Imagine having to pay a royalty every time you crank your car or turn on your computer. The intellect required to make the machines work is actually much more complex and requires more imagination than writing a song.

These people have become a protected class in society and are pushing for even more rights to make more money off less work. It's not like these people are mozart or beethoven writing music for the ages.
Reply to this comment
by freemarket--2008 October 8, 2009 7:11 AM PDT
Totally agree.
by Renegade Knight October 8, 2009 7:13 AM PDT
People forget that copyright only protects SOME creators of IP. While I would not go so far as to say writing a song is simpler than engineering I will say they are both creative talents taking orginal thought. That said it does bring some focus on the issue. We only ever think of some kinds of IP when it comes to copyright and money. Some of us are not invited to the table.
by jeepster68 October 8, 2009 7:07 AM PDT
Last time I checked, most brick-and-mortar music stores had "listening stations" for customers to preview CDs before buying. Do they pay performance fees?
Reply to this comment
by ij57 October 8, 2009 7:08 AM PDT
"Two weeks ago, I wrote a story about how some of these groups want iTunes and other Web music retailers to pay performance fees for downloads of TV shows and films....Those revelations didn't go over well with many techies." Of course not. Techies don't care. Put this article on a songwriting website and you'll get a different result. Are your articles here on CNET copyrighted? If someone copied and pasted your article and posted it somewhere else that made them money for their content, would that matter to you? Techies couldn't live without content, but they don't want to pay for it.
Reply to this comment
by MrBoomshadow October 9, 2009 5:32 AM PDT
I'm a techie. I can live without content, and I do frequently pay for it, as my Jonathan Coulton and The Fump CD collection (among 700 others) will attest. Please don't generalize.

That said, any commercial reuse of the author's piece should be covered by copyright according to CNET's Terms of Use.
by Renegade Knight October 8, 2009 7:11 AM PDT
Do they get performance fees from the sale of a DVD or CD? If so downloading should be the same. If they don't why bring this up now?
Reply to this comment
by BPMelvin October 8, 2009 11:03 AM PDT
Yes the songwriter gets 9.1 cents for a cd Streaming is much much less by several orders of magnitude.

And it's not JUST brought up now it's been ongoing for a long time...the awareness of this issue is new. DMCA changed things especially concerning Artists ans Songwriters. The emphasis changed to Artist. often highly paid vs Songwriter who is often not.
by rdupuy11 October 8, 2009 7:15 AM PDT
"Technology should not be used to strip rights from songwriters, composers and music publishers. The choice of certain audiovisual delivery systems or methods over others should not result in a diminution of creators' rights or royalties."

It doesn't. It maximizes their royalties. Putting the cover of a book in an advertisement for the book - doesn't reduce the royalties to the graphic artist who did the artwork. It's the opposite, the advertisement spurs books sales, and they then get paid on the increased book sales.

By the same token a 30 second preview of a song, is not a performance. It's a teaser, designed to spur the sales of the song.

They think they can get away with this, because Congress is notoriously ill-informed about subjects, and tends to listen to trade groups over the general public. It's unfortunate, but true, they regard the general public as being somewhat dumb, and dealing with large groups, fits more in with their egos and how they envision their job as congressmen and congresswomen.

Basically, we need our own groups to have more influence than these other groups, or there is little hope to get the right kind of legislation enacted.
Reply to this comment
by Stormspace October 8, 2009 7:23 AM PDT
If they get their way, each time a song, TV, or movie is downloaded they will get a performance fee. If I'm correct public performances fees were meant to be given when groups were the beneficiary of the performance, not individuals. Are they going to start charging for personal recording as well?

Also, as for charging for sampling the work...that's ludicrous. Talk about killing your own business, not to mention when looking for songs with similar titles it's going to be difficult to differentiate between them with out listening to the song.
Reply to this comment
by Zoobie October 8, 2009 11:27 AM PDT
If they get their way, does that mean anytime I buy a song it comes licensed for public performance? If we carry it far enough, stadiums, conference centers, and even television and movie studios could save a lot of money by just downloading songs off iTunes rather than pay the public performace fees they are currently being charged.
by Stormspace October 8, 2009 7:50 PM PDT
I like the way you think.
by jmobb October 8, 2009 7:30 AM PDT
I have mixed feelings about this. For better or worse, I am in the music business and from our point of view, there is a massive land grab taking place. Yes, the 30 second preview is silly. However, how many of you are aware that places like itunes, hulu.com and well, all of these sights do not pay performance royalties at all?

A great example is hulu.com. every show you watch is considered a rental. At least I'm pretty sure that's how they categorize it. Thus, no royalty. So from our point of view it's like wait a minute, you call it a rental yet, there is advertising throughout the show. Sure seems like a public performance to us.

What people have to understand is, all of the major content companies are trying to kill royalties once and for all once everything moves to digital. Is it any wonder that composers and artists are freaking out? We were promised dvd back end and it never materialized.

People call us greedy but consider this, a lot of reality shows are gratis based. This means, they take music for free and you the composer, get paid in performance royalties. I could name a hundred shows that do this. So, you write 20 cues and they get placed in the show and you see money a few months down the road. it's not a boatload of cash, but do this enough times and you can make a good living. At least, that's the idea. With everything moving to digital, thats not true anymore. The economics of music for tv for people like us only works if there is back end.

I understand the sensationalism of the 30 second preview thing. However, look a little deeper and you will see a trend as old as time. The big guys essentially taking it all for themselves. Don't blame us, blame nbc, cbs, mtv etc.
Reply to this comment
by ddesy October 8, 2009 8:25 AM PDT
The way things like Hulu work really is more like a rental than a public performance. It isn't a broadcast going out to everyone at once as if it were on television.
by jmobb October 8, 2009 10:29 AM PDT
@ddsey You are right, it is more like a rental. However, there are commercial breaks within the shows being watched. This makes it something else. What that is IS something that will need to be worked out in the courts.
by Zoobie October 8, 2009 11:30 AM PDT
I don't think many people here disagree that the artists aren't the ones to blame in this discussion. It's the executives who make a ton of money for not adding much value--and really the perception that with digital distribution, how relevant are all those highly-paid big-whigs?

Seems to me, this is a rich-boys party and they are trying to figure out how to continue to pay themselves as they watch revenues decline.
by Quincy2001 October 9, 2009 12:00 AM PDT
jmobb -

Great points. The basic principle of TV and movie studios paying the musicians and composers when their work is used to the profit of the studios remains good in digital and should really be the driving value in the debate.

It seems to me that there's a new category opening up with things like Hulu... I'd call it on-demand performance. The shows are available for a limited period of time, and transmitted from the service to the viewer in such a way that they don't (or are not intended to) persist after that period. In the case of Hulu, they're also inserting ads from which they derive profit.

Unlike iTunes downloads, Hulu is clearly not a reproduction. A show can be watched N number of times on Hulu, but it does not mean that N number of copies exist. To my mind, this also speaks against it being a rental as there is no reproduction being rented. I'm personally not sure how well the concept of a rental translates from the physical world to the online one in the first place, but at the very least a rental should stem from the idea of a reproduction.

There's legitimately uncharted ground here, but the groups pushing the things described in the article are missing it in favor of making land grabs that trample established territory.
by radioswade October 8, 2009 7:46 AM PDT
as a member of the song writers guild, i find this stance ridiculous. the voting on this issue is not as uniform as the president would like you to think. i am already paid for the right to use my works in other media ( the attack of iTunes does not make sense because we are not attacking physical stores for doing similar things - i.e. listening before you buy ). also, unless you are the singer as well, songwriters rarely get performance fees - we were not the performer that made the song popular.

this argument sounds abit like Frank Sinatra's argument that he should get more royalties than the writer because the like the song because of him!

taking this to congress is alot like what happened to pre successful musician in Nashville. none of the honky-tonks so famously shown whenever Nashville is on TV do not pay the performers so they do not have to pay fees to BMI/ ASCAP/SESAC/etc. all the players are busking in these bars generating revenue for the bar owners who don't give them anything for performing; these guys only make what the tourist put in their tip jar. and afr as actual on the street busking, they have made that impossible by going around and asking for union dues and royalty fees for performing certain songs from the buskers.

or to put it another way, i had four songs placed in TV shows last year, generating enough income for me to live a modest upper-middle class lifestyle. its is usually only the upper- management and people who want in, that fight these types of crusades. the real battleshould be with the very low percentages that labels pay for anything. as the songwriter a single hit #1 on the charts has to sell around 30 million copies fro me, as the writer not the performer, to see close to $500,000. calculate my percentage.
Reply to this comment
by Len Bullard October 8, 2009 7:55 AM PDT
The 30 second preview thing is rubbish. On the other hand, the engineers vs artists thing is stupid. As jmobb points out, this is a land grab. It is ok to pay for the format but not the content? How is that ok? It is like buying a candy bar and paying for the wrapper but not the cow.

This will not be settled in the court of public opinion. The public as exemplified in the comments here is proving to be asinine. This will be settled in Congress and the courts. Then sure, you can go to pirate sites and download for free just as you can go to a street dealer and pick up a fix. Until you get caught; it's jake. When you do, it's jail.

Adapt to that.
Reply to this comment
by Understarsidream October 8, 2009 8:01 AM PDT
It's greed pure and simple. They (along with most groups/companies) only care about getting MORE MORE MORE for themselves and damn the consequences. One of the reasons the record companies sales are down is often overlooked.... most music today is bad and overpriced.

So instead of making better music - they thought lets force people to pay more for our bad decisions!
Reply to this comment
by jmobb October 8, 2009 8:14 AM PDT
Again, this is much larger than just bands and labels. Read up a little bit.
by elbruelsio October 8, 2009 8:16 AM PDT
Consider what a public performance is. Is it watching a TV show on a DVD you purchased from Target? No. Is it listening to a song you purchased from iTunes or Amazon. No, these are not public performances. I agree with the idea that copyright should be technology neutral but so should the definition of public performance.
Reply to this comment
by PandaSage1221 October 8, 2009 8:32 AM PDT
I would think that if the paying for 30-second previews goes through, the music sites would still offer that to customers for free, and just pay for it themselves - maybe raise song prices or advertise more.

Or at the very least, give you three previews for every song you buy, or something to that effect.
Reply to this comment
by winstein October 8, 2009 8:43 AM PDT
Stupid people wants to protect status quo. They want to keep their existing relationships with the radio stations and record labels.

This is a power shift. New artists will figure out new ways to get rich without the old relationships.
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About Media Maverick

In covering digital media for CNET News, Greg Sandoval has broken stories on Apple, Microsoft, YouTube, The Pirate Bay, and the digital efforts of the major music labels and Hollywood studios. Before that, in his first tour with CNET News, he covered e-commerce during the dot-com boom and bust. A dogged investigative reporter, he began his journalism career at the Los Angeles Times and followed that with a short TV stint at The E! True Hollywood Story. Later, he spent three years as a staff writer for The Washington Post. Greg is an alumnus of USC and was raised in Chatsworth, California, which is distinguishable only for being the porn capital of the world.

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