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June 5, 2008 6:52 AM PDT

'Anybody who legally downloads music is an idiot!' says irate record store owner

by Steve Guttenberg

The view from inside Rockit Scientist Records

(Credit: Steve Guttenberg)

It's in the East Village around the corner from where the 1960s rock Mecca, the Fillmore East once stood. Rockit Scientist Records is a blast from the past, a 'Village record shop that's a treasure trove for collector oriented psychedelia, '60s, '70s, and '80s garage rock, underground, progressive, punk, blues, soul, reggae, and jazz.

Rockit carries mostly CDs, but there's a lot of new and used vinyl, with a smattering of music DVDs. Owner John Kioussis is there six days a week and always multitasking. "It's not rocket science," heh, heh--drop in, and you'll likely find him sorting records, chatting on the phone and serving in-store customers--all at the same time.

Asked if downloads are killing his business, John got a little worked up, "Anybody who legally downloads music is an idiot! You can get it for free, why pay for it? Download it illegally, who's going to catch you? Legal or illegal, they sound the same."

Ah, but the CD or LP, that's way better, so if you're going to pay, you might as well buy the physical version. Maybe get some nice cover art or booklet. Makes sense to me. John quipped, "If I was a kid I'd be downloading music, but if you ask me I think the music business blew it by charging too much for CDs."

Rockit doesn't have website but does mail order. The shop is located on 33 Saint Marks Place, so if you're into this sort of music and in NYC definitely check it out. Out of towners can call 212 242 0066 or Fax 212 645 5432.

Originally posted at The Audiophiliac
Steve Guttenberg is a frequent contributor to magazines and Web sites including Home Entertainment, Playback, and Ultimate AV. He is a member of the CNET Blog Network, and is not an employee of CNET. Disclosure.
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Add a Comment (Log in or register) Showing 1 of 2 pages (27 Comments)
by john_ kioussis June 5, 2008 1:01 PM PDT
Hi , interesting article but I could have sworn after giving up my time ( on the phone ) to Steve re: downloads in the music business that I was calm not " irate " as your headline claims , perhaps that's why more and more people are reluctant to give interviews . Oh well , another lesson learned for me .
Mellow as a Pina Colada John
Reply to this comment
by punterjoe June 6, 2008 1:08 PM PDT
John - don't worry about it. The headline may have been a bit over the top, but it got people to read the piece. I will surely have to check out your shop next time I'm down from Boston. btw - There's no contest between physical media & downloads. I'm with you on that.
by the Otter June 6, 2008 11:32 AM PDT
Well, John, I?ll have to (calmly) disagree. I download music legally because I?m a moral guy?a Christian, as it happens?as opposed to a thief. Granted, I probably buy more music on CD than I download, but it?s a mix: I download it if I only want a song or two, buy the CD if it?s any more than that. (At that point, it?s cheaper to buy it used. 75¢ + shipping, anyone?)
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by mudixon June 6, 2008 12:11 PM PDT
John, you need to wake up. Downloading illegally is illegal. Don't you get it? Why tell people to break the law?

Also, I'm not going to waste $15+ on an entire CD (album) when there are only a few songs I really like on it. I will hit iTunes and purchase the tracks individually, saving money. Sure, the quality isn't uncompressed, but the iTunes Plus tracks are high quality and have no DRM. The real problem is with record producers allowing crappy tracks on an album with a few gems mixed in. Where's the inventiveness? Where's the originality? Recording artists (not all) are just not putting out as good music as they used to. It's all due to pressure from the labels to get that album out ASAP.
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by CR8VDO June 6, 2008 12:30 PM PDT
"John, you need to wake up. Downloading illegally is illegal. Don't you get it? Why tell people to break the law?"

Maybe he learned this behavior from our lame government ot from us. We allow illegal people in this country so what's the problem? Illegal is illegal regardless of the subject. If you're willing to overlook illegal aliens, then an illegal download is just as harmless. I say even more so. Illegal downloads won't rob, rape and pillage!
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by protagonistic June 6, 2008 12:38 PM PDT
I have to disagree with you, John. I legally download music and I am not an idiot. It appears that some of us have more morals than you do.

Now I will admit that most of the music I purchase is from the Independent musicians and I happen to feel that an artist deserves to be compensated for something I can't produce myself. I don't, however, feel that the RIAA deserves to be compensated for it's stupidity on this issue.
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by gusash August 28, 2009 2:34 AM PDT
I totally agree. A lot of people download music legally. Infact, I would say roughly 70% of the worlds population> Are you calling all these people idiots? I see who the real idiots are here, John. Get a life!
by ihaveaconscience June 6, 2008 12:43 PM PDT
John, you have shown that all it takes to feel OK about illegal downloads is to ignore your conscience...do it long enough, and all is good in the world...I can download all I want and no one gets hurt. Except the artists who can barely make enough to live on.

What you lack John, is integrity. You've shown yourself a thief...the price being an illegal download...and your conscience.
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by Pishkado June 6, 2008 12:51 PM PDT
"Anyone who doesn't stuff food in his pocket/her purse at the supermarket is an idiot."
"Anyone who doesn't put books in his sweatshirt at Barnes & Noble is an idiot."
"Anyone who doesn't swipe a sandwich from the case at Starbucks while the barista's back is turned is an idiot."
"Anyone who doesn't siphon gasoline out of the neighbor's tank while they're away is an idiot."

How do those sound? Music is just of many things you can steal. What keeps us from stealing all of them? The threat of being caught? Perhaps, but I'd like to think it's more than that - at least for some of us.
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by Dalkorian June 9, 2008 8:55 AM PDT
I'll explain this slowly so that you can understand. Every single example you gave involved taking something away, meaning others couldn't access it. Obvious examples of theft. The problem is illegal downloading is NOT THEFT! It's copyright infringement, pure and simple. Think of walking into an art store and taking pictures of the art on the walls, can you then be arrested for theft by carrying your camera out of the art store? The RIAA/MPAA want to keep you confused on this subject because everyone hates a thief, but copying a file does not impact that file in ANY WAY. It's still there for others to find, therefore it's illegally copied and NOT STOLEN. Get it yet?
by Yieeman June 6, 2008 1:23 PM PDT
More and more it seems that comment boards are really only used to show our supremacy over someone else. I am clearly going to hell as I cannot even dream of reaching the moral bar most of you seem to have set.

John himself does not seem to particularly like how the article came out and perhaps some things were taken out of context. I do not completely agree with the views expressed in the article; I can understand them though. I am someone that loves owning albums. The singles, the B-sides and the artwork; and it sounds like John does too. For someone that owns a record store I would imagine that it is hard to understand the purchasing of a download that can be so easily obtained for free. If you want to pay for music, why don't you actually buy the music? Not just the 0s and 1s. Perhaps that was the meaning of the article that got lost in translation.
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by mastercko June 6, 2008 3:29 PM PDT
seriously, the "holier-than-thou" is pretty damn thick this afternoon.
by dadsgravy June 6, 2008 3:48 PM PDT
Wow! The only thing I have to say is: If your argument is that paying for downloads is great because you're not stealing and you only want that one or two songs anyway and you shouldn't have to pay $15 for them, YOU DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT MUSIC!
You have the worst taste, the worst music collection and itunes and amazon were created knowing that you are a moral idiot with bad taste.
Reply to this comment
by RickRussellTX June 6, 2008 4:46 PM PDT
"YOU DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT MUSIC!"....

Although the previous poster put it a little more stridently than I like, there is some valid thinking there.

Some artists (admittedly a minority these days) compose an album as a single artwork. Sure, individual songs may be separated -- like the songs from a musical -- but the songs often form a thematic whole. You miss that theme if you pick out one or two songs and ignore the rest.

Second, some albums have fantastic songs that never become mainstream hits, and you'll never hear them if you only download 1 or 2 songs that you are familiar with.

Third, your perception of songs -- like any art -- will change over time. Songs that are initially disliked may become favorites later. If you don't listen to the album, you never hear them.

With that said, I do pay to download music from Amazon's MP3 store, because it's DRM-free, reasonably priced and incredibly easy.
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by osynnek June 6, 2008 5:20 PM PDT
So every now and then I hear a song, either on the radio or in a store. I go home, download this crappy MP3 and listen to it for awhile and decide, I do like the song. So I do what John recommends. Buy the CD, or if available, the LP. For 99.5% of the songs on my iPod, I have the LPs or CDs or DRM removed MP3's. I'll probably go to jail for that .5% of songs I forgot to erase. (sigh).
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by xmlhacker June 6, 2008 6:23 PM PDT
You all seem to be missing the point: This isn't a debate as to whether or not it's "okay" to download illegally. John's point -- a point I most certainly agree with -- is that regardless of how you obtained the music, compressed media files will always lose at least some of the original recording. With CD's, the quality is always going to be better unless you go with a lossless -- and therefore uncompressed -- file format such as WAV or FLAC. But at this stage of the game, the size of a WAV or FLAC file to be considered a realistic medium for consumption over the Internet. And even further, the digitized version of an analog recording will never be able to reproduce the exact sound of the original recording, so in many ways you're better off going with vinyl if and when that's possible.

Of course, you can't stick vinyl in your pocket and listen to it on the go, so digital certainly provides convenience if not exact replication. And the clarity that comes with the cleaned up digital recordings can often times trump the authenticity of the analog recording. At least as far as the average human ear is concerned, which means that *most* consumers will prefer a CD over its vinyl counterpart. Of course, if SACD were to ever take off, that preference would only increase, but I still believe vinyl will always be an appreciated -- if not preferred -- medium to true audiophiles, which brings us right back to the point I believe John is trying to make: Compressed audio formats are *awful*. Spending money to obtain a 128k, 196k, or 256k MP3 file is a complete waste. Buy the CD or vinyl if/when possible, or start demanding that more online music retailers provide the original WAV, FLAC, and/or other uncompressed file formats. Of course the primary reason they don't is because the file sizes are too big for the average consumer who wants to listen to their newly purchased music as close to immediately as possible. For that we need a serious upgraded to our Internet infrastructure. That's coming, but its still a ways before the likes of iTunes feels justified in offering uncompressed audio files.
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by john_ kioussis June 7, 2008 8:58 PM PDT
Thanks for the back up , as I said in my interview ( of which part of it was not published for space limitations ) if I were a kid today i'd be downloading music illegally because I because I couldn't afford to buy all the music that's available out there . I have said for many years that cd's should be $ 9.99 not the prices that you see in the stores because of the greed of the labels. Two weeks ago the co - president of Atlantic Records told me that he couldn't sell cd's anymore and he looked very worried unlike the confident person that i've known for 12 years. Music people that shop in my store know why people download music illegally
by xmlhacker June 6, 2008 6:27 PM PDT
@osynnek,

Sorry, didn't see your response until after I posted my own. I absolutely agree with your point.
Reply to this comment
by xmlhacker June 6, 2008 6:51 PM PDT
@Pishkado,

The difference between all of your arguments and process of making a copy of an audio file -- regardless if its legal or illegal -- is that of stealing physical inventory. Barnes & Noble pays a publisher a certain amount to stock one of their titles. If someone steals a book, they now have to pay more money to the publisher to replace the stolen item.

I'm not arguing that it's okay to steal. But if instead of stealing a book, that same person when into Barnes&Noble and took pictures of each page, then the theft doesn't impose a financial burden on B&N. You could argue that taking pictures of the pages instead of buying the book means B&N loses a sale, but if I'm the type of person who's willing to go through the effort of taking pictures of all the pages, chances are pretty good I'd have no interest in plunking down the $25 bucks, so B&N nor the publisher/author have lost anything. The same can be said about illegal downloads: If I'm the type of person willing to download a track illegally, chances are pretty good I'm not the type of person who would have paid money for it in the first place. And in many cases, I'm gaining exposure to music I would have otherwise never gained exposure to which means if that same band were to ever come to my hometown, I will be much more likely to pay the $10 - $50 for a ticket than I would have been otherwise, which means the band has now benefited from my illegal download, *especially* when you consider that even in the pre-Internet days most musicians made their money from concerts instead of sales of CD's/LP's/etc. And while the labels can complain their sales are plunging, it's not because of illegal downloads and instead because they chose to fight the transition from physical mediums to digital downloads instead of embracing the opportunity. iTunes has proven that people are willing to spend money on digital downloads. The record industry just took too long to figure out that fighting your customer base in court instead of giving them the options they were most interested in does nothing to help you sell more music, and everything to make each of these customers embrace a "stick it to the man" attitude towards you.
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by cardes June 7, 2008 11:41 PM PDT
Why doesn't somebody just take his advice and break into his shop to steal some LPs just and rip them to MP3? The stuff sounds the same, so steal it dammit!
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by Dalkorian June 9, 2008 9:06 AM PDT
You couldn't have missed his point more. His argument is if you're going to download a few bits that represent a compressed version of some song, you might as well "steal" it (read: download illegally, because it's not "theft" to copy something it's actually copyright infringement) because it's worth next to nothing anyway. When you buy the CD/LP, you get a collection of music, cover art, lyrics (typically) and "bonuses" like that. Plus full sound quality, not some compressed-to-death version to make a download easier on your ISP. Plus the artists make a larger percentage of album sales than they do of song sales online. Agree or disagree with his point (I actually agree with him mostly), but at least understand it before spewing off.
by cardes June 9, 2008 10:26 PM PDT
You obviously do not understand intellectual property. If you are an attorney, you should seriously consider retaking the USPTO exam.
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by Wes#1 June 10, 2008 7:32 AM PDT
Interesting, all the comments on downloading and copying. My interest here was the fact that this store sells vinyl... But one point seems missing with all this talk of downloading (legal or otherwise): Without physical media, John's store would not exist. I can't imagine why he would endorse downloading. One think I definitely agree with, though, is that the music industry shot itself in the foot by overcharging for CDs, and STILL won't reduce the prices in the face of download competition. Stupid. And they get what they deserve.
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by DennisMcCK June 10, 2008 7:16 PM PDT
"If you want to pay for music, why don't you actually buy the music? Not just the 0s and 1s." The 0s and 1s ARE the music. The CD is just one medium for storing them. I do pay for the music I want by buying it on iTunes.
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by dayamax June 13, 2008 4:28 AM PDT
Downloading music illegally feels good.

Also, I have listened to a lot of music which I couldn't have afforded to do in the first place if I was buying music. But now i've begun to notice the shortcomings of mp3s, so maybe I'll start buying CDs of my favourite bands.
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by otrpu January 11, 2009 10:35 PM PST
You're right John, There's very little in print that has aanythin at all t odo with fact.
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