AMD: MacBook issues giving graphics bad rap

Advanced Micro Devices worries that lingering issues--both real and speculative--with Apple MacBooks are giving laptop graphics a black eye.

In a phone interview Tuesday, Stan Ossias, director of marketing, mobile graphics, at AMD, began by asserting that my March 11 post "overstated" the case about heat and the instability of graphics processors in laptops and that some readers may interpret heat issues too broadly.

"In the case of Apple's product, I don't know what happened with Nvidia's GPU but we'd like to avoid having the negative aspects taint the entire industry," he said. (GPU stands for graphics processing unit.)

Most recently, there have been reports of performance issues with Apple's new 17-inch MacBook Pro, which has the Nvidia GeForce 9600M chip. But it's unclear whether Nvidia's chips are really the problem and it's not known how widespread the issues are.

Ossias started off the discussion by spelling out how AMD mobile graphics processors can adjust performance and power consumption to different conditions. (The technology, it should be noted, is applied in various ways by many graphics chips.)

"When the system is calling upon the GPU to do more work, we either increase the voltage or increase the clock speed or increase the operating attributes of the system in order to maximize the performance, and when those things are not in demand we can scale them back so they're not constantly being run at their maximum. This is the way we go about trying to avoid overheating," he said. Strict implementation of these design parameters is particularly critical in systems where there is the greatest potential for overheating: thin notebooks and high-end gaming notebooks, according to Ossias.

AMD provides tools to PC makers, he said, who make the final design decisions on how the GPU will perform in different power-usage scenarios. But sometimes the laptop maker won't make the best choice.

"Somebody may choose a GPU that doesn't necessarily have the best operating characteristics or doesn't deliver the optimal power consumption in all operating ranges. That's a constant development challenge" for laptop makers, he said, then added: "A very, very large proportion of our customers do a very good job of this."

"I don't think Apple does a bad job of this in general. They are extremely meticulous generally," he said. However, in some cases "a product decision is made (where) maybe there is more emphasis put on performance characteristics than on another characteristic. Again, that's another choice that can be made," Ossias said.

Ossias gave an example of the type of graphics chip that would not go into the new MacBook Pro, which is about an inch thick. At the high end of its mobile graphics chip lineup, the ATI Mobility Radeon 4870 can draw as much as 45 watts--a big power draw for a mobile chip. Due to these power characteristics, this would not go into a thin form-factor notebook like the new MacBook Pro, he said.

AMD announced new mobile GPUs last week based on a cutting-edge 40-nanometer process

(Credit: AMD-ATI)

Last week, AMD announced groundbreaking mobile GPUs, the ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4830 and 4860, based on a cutting-edge 40-nanometer process. Both chips compete in the same general performance category as the 4870 but start at a much lower power-consumption level (the low 20-watt range) and "therefore you can actually get the 4830 into a thin and elegant notebook design," according to Ossias. AMD's current 4650 and 4670 can fit into thin form factors also, he said. These latter two chips would be in the same class as the Apple MacBook Pro's Nvidia GeForce 9600M, he claimed. The 9600M is the chip alleged to have heat and performance issues.

"I know that when Nvidia announced (in October of last year) publicly that it was recalling or having to rework some of its products and they took a big write-down, we had to address concerns from our customers that we were not also experiencing packaging failures because of the overheating and design flaws that they were experiencing in their product line," he said. "So, we basically had to go and calm down a lot of our customers and say, look, this is not something that's inherent to our technology, it's not something that you have to expect from any GPU."

[lonestarState]

Have always been a big fan of AMD and ATI, hope to see there products in Apple computers sometime soon!

[myles taylor]

Macs don't even use AMD chips. How can they hurt the reputation of AMD?

[catch23]

Because people don't hear 'Mac laptop problems', they hear 'laptop problems'.
AMD just wants to make sure they stand apart, and people understand it is 'Mac laptop problems'

[ittesi259]

THe article AMD had an issue with was about Apple, but I agree with AMD that it gives the impression that a 1 inch wide notebook is the real problem and consumers expect too much. I didn't care for that feeling even if it wasn't the point of the article.

[pithenumber]

Macs use ATi GPU's, not the MBP though
If people hear problems with the 9600M, they think that all mid to high end chips are exactly like that, that hurts both nVidia and AMD

[nicmart]

It's like someone running up after a fire and yelling "I didn't start it!" It creates suspicion where there was none.

[regulluz]

@ Miles Taylor: Because 90% of the population have no clue that AMD and nVidia are 2 separate companies, or that GPUs are pieces inside a PC manufactured by different companies.

[kelmon]

I'd be willing to wager that 90% of the population have never heard of AMD, ATI or nVidia and that they've only heard of Intel because of their television advertisements and the sticker on the front of their PC.

[myles taylor]

And those 89% don't care. So where's the problem?

[Mr_7235]

Interesting that AMD responds over the Mac issues. I have a Lenovo T500 with switchable ATI graphics. With the default drivers, every time the computer is connected to a dvi monitor through the port replicator the computer blue-screens at least once a day. Took Lenovo 6 months to release drivers to "fix" the bluescreen problem, but the new graphics drivers are so buggy and have so many other incompatibilities that they aren't even listed on the system driver matrix. Now I don't know if this is a case of Lenovo acting irresponsibly, or if it's a combination of Lenovo and ATI misbehaving. I do know, however, that because of my switchable ATI graphics, I've lost many hours of work and all sorts of data.

[Imalittleteapot]

And I've had similar buggy driver problems with nvidia as well. The bug fixes for hardware drivers just don't seem to be coming as quickly as the new hardware is or new features they put into them.

Driver programming is hard and I haven't heard of any new tools come along in ages to make that job easier on the developers that have to support more hardware and feature than ever.

[Smegz]

I think the issues with the MacBook are casting nVidia in a bad light since MacBooks do not use AMD graphics. What blew my mind was why Apple chose nVidia for the new line-up after last years fiasco. I thought for sure that AMD would get a shot at the MacBook after that.

[fdunn3]

I had the same thoughts when I first heard they were not only continuing with nVidia GPUs but also chipsets, why is Apple making the same mistake twice?

[ballmerisanape]

More like AMD looking for free press.... while pointing out their competitors negative press.. press that had gone away.

[pjhenry1216]

Honestly, I felt like they were helping their competitor here. They seemed to go out of their way to say that its not the GPU's fault, but the laptop manufacturer's fault. AMD shifted the blame from nVidia to Apple. I'd say that yes, there was definitely an ulterior motive, but it lay in the fact that AMD would benefit by helping nVidia out in this situation. If nVidia suffered, so would ATI (and therefore AMD). So, under AMD (not ATI or else it'd look funny), they kind of went to bat for nVidia.

Yea, it wasn't selfless, but no, it wasn't mean-spirited against their competitor either.

[pithenumber]

AMD is helping nVidia by shifting blame to Apple
AMD and nVidia are in the same boat, they hate Intel
Intel pissed nVidia off and AMD competes with Intel and is losing(not that badly anymore though)

[Jeff Putz]

The "issues" are being totally blown out of proportion. Just because people with machines that have defects have a loud voice doesn't mean they account for a large percentage of customers. I have one of those new 17" laptops, and I haven't had any issues.

There is little doubt in my mind that some percentage of product owners have something like a GPU that slipped through the QA ringer or improperly applied thermal paste between the chip and heat sink or whatever. But until someone can actually quantify the issue, this isn't really a news event, it's just some unknown number of pissed off people.

[kelmon]

There could be a lot of truth in that statement. Any issue with Apple's products is "big news" and reports of them generate lots of page hits and the usual flame war. It usually is not reported on how widespread these issues actually are but the assumption seems to be that it is substantial. However, like you, I'd prefer to see some numbers before losing my head over these reports.

[1g2j]

nVidia notebook chips is garbage anyways. Not Apple fault.

[pithenumber]

no, its Apple's fault, they stuck a fairly hot GPU into an ultra slim case with inadequate cooling
the ones at the top of the bin work fine, while the ones that barely passed QC overheat

[1g2j]

So its also HP fault that almost their entire 2007 and 2008 notebook lines have nVidia graphic inside and having the same exact overheating issuse. Its the faulty chips thats the problem

[venuesdotorg]

Sticking a 9600M in a laptop frame is like sticking a towbar on the back of a Covette - you are just asking for someone to cook it with inappropriate use. If you want to tow a boat, use a truck. If you want hard core graphics - use a desktop.

[killjoy2k9]

Funny, if it's an nVidia issue. I have a Gateway FX Laptop from last year- it has a 8800 GT in it, and it has never once had an over-heating problem. Of course, it also has a big vent right next to the card's heat sink, so maybe it being the slightest bit less sexy is worth my laptop not burning a hole in my crotch.

Oh yea- I spent ~$200 on a processor upgrade for my machine, and it surpasses my GF's MBP from 8 months later in every area, for over $1000 less.

[aelalfy1989]

by venuesdotorg March 11, 2009 1:03 PM PDT
"Sticking a 9600M in a laptop frame is like sticking a towbar on the back of a Covette - you are just asking for someone to cook it with inappropriate use. If you want to tow a boat, use a truck. If you want hard core graphics - use a desktop."

Thats so true man. Honestly if you want a big boys gaming console either use a strong desktop or get a PS3 i know its not the same but the last thing you want to do is buy a laptop. first off i rather use a ps3 than a laptop because you gotta set it up for gaming use get a nice mouse and make space - ram wise and so on..laptops are not made for gaming in my opinion i rather sacrifice gaming and get lightweight slick and friendly laptops.

>[CNET editor's note: Prohibited spam deleted.]

[kelmon]

The 1990s called and they'd like you to return your outdated notion that GPUs are only used for gaming.

Seriously, do you think MacBook Pros are being used for gaming when the Mac is famous for not having any games? Mine spends most of its time processing RAW image files, which is what the system was designed to do.

[killjoy2k9]

"Laptops are not made for gaming"

I dare you guys to find 6 words you can say in a row that will make you sound more retarded. Laptops that are not made for gaming are not made for gaming... Just like desktops that are not made for gaming...

If you can show me the version of WoW on the PS3, or EQ2, or any of the other games I play on my PC, I'll bite. Sure, I'd rather have a more powerful desktop for home use, but the fact I can throw my PC in a bag and take it to a friends' house, and it's better than their tower at least 50% of the time means that, not only are some laptops MEANT for gaming, some are GOOD at it too.