Windows gets a 'Mini-Me'

It's rare that anyone at Microsoft talks publicly about Windows 7, the next version of Windows. It's even rarer that anyone provides actual information about what might be inside the operating system, which is still in the planning stages.

However, Microsoft has posted a video of a recent university lecture given by Distinguished Engineer Eric Traut in which he talks about, among other things, a new, slimmed down kernel known as MinWin that was created as part of the Windows 7 development process.

The kernel, which lacks Vista's bells and whistles or even a graphics system at all, takes up just 25MB on disk as compared with 4GB that the full Windows Vista takes up. And while people would need far more than MinWin to run even a basic Web server, Traut said it shows that Windows, at its heart, does not have to be a monster resource hog.

Windows Vista, in all its glory, takes up a whopping 4GB of disk space.

(Credit: Microsoft)

"That's kind of proof that there is actually a nice little core inside of Windows," Traut said. "A lot of people think of Windows as this really large, bloated operating system and that's maybe a fair characterization, I have to admit. It is large. It contains a lot of stuff in it, but at its core, the kernel and the components that make up the very core of the operating system actually are pretty streamlined."

Traut stressed that MinWin, though it uses the Windows 7 code base, probably won't be used on its own.

"This is an internal only (thing)," Traut said in the video. "You won't see us productizing this, but you can imagine this being used as the basis for products in the future.

He did hint at some of the possibilities.

"We're definitely going to be using this internally to build all of the products that are based on Windows," he said. "We build a lot of products based on this kernel."

Beyond powering laptops and desktops, Traut notes that the Windows core powers servers, media centers and smaller embedded devices. "This will provide us the ability to move into even more areas," he said.

The full video runs quite long and talks a lot about hypervisors and other stuff, but blogger Long Zheng posted a clip of just the relevant part of the talk on his istartedsomething site. Even if you are not interested in Windows kernels and all that, the first part of the clip is worth watching just for the demos of early Windows versions, like version 1 and 2.

When asked for more info, Microsoft returned to its position of near-silence on the topic.

"As a company we're always exploring new ways to innovate Windows, using customer feedback as a guide," the company said in a statement e-mailed to CNET News.com. "The video posted to Channel 8 is a reflection of our commitment to platform innovation. No decisions have been made--it's still an ongoing discussion for now. We have no new information to share on future versions of the operating system at this time."

[MSSlayer]

Of course not

No way MS could ever create something efficient and then be able to distribute it.

[SpiritWater]

Skipping Vista for Windows 7

I'd really like to skip Vista altogether, but Windows 7 isn't slated for release till 2010. Ugh! What's with the 4 years release schedule? I thought Ballmer stated a 2-3 year development cycle for operating systems.

[Renegade Knight]

2010

Vista won't be working right until 2010. It's hard to imagine that they will keep up with a 4 year release schedule. Especially if they need 3 years from release to get the OS working right.

[timber2005]

2007 + 3 is what?

Correct me if I'm wrong... Vista went to "general consumers" in 2007. 2007 + 3 = 2010 for general release.<br /><br />2010-2007 =/= 4

[morrie 52]

yep balmer tis right

The release to joe public was this year so mathmatically 2010 = 3 years erh I fink.

[dscottbuch]

vaporware

And the next vaporware parade begins.

[pkorona]

Open source it

They should put MinWin out as open source, maybe with a few shell tools. Call it LinWin

[The_happy_switcher]

mini-me

Now you can look forward to mini crashes instead.

[mgc6020]

Windows Mini-Me

Where's the news! So Microsoft has a core that's tight...but it can't do anything without the bloat. There are a number of Small Linux distributions out and they're quite functional for their size. Here are two to check out:<br /><br />Puppy Linux <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.puppylinux.org/" target="_newWindow">http://www.puppylinux.org/</a><br /><br />Damn Small Linux - <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/" target="_newWindow">http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/</a>

[rapier1]

Understanding the bloat

Much of the bloat that exists in Windows is due to the near obsession they have with backward compatibility. The fact that you can run many Win95 apps on a Vista box is testament to that. <br /><br />Of course, its not as if bloat was invented by MS. However, they have taken it to a new level but its mostly because of the need to provide that compatibility. But even the linux kernel - even the tight versions - are expanding at a rapid rate. As memory and cycles get cheaper code will simply expand to fill the void. <br /><br />Now, MS might have been smart to have dumped backwards compatibility and included an emulation mode to ala OS X - but its more difficult to make those changes when your market share is measured in 90%th percentile.

[ltoones]

Microsoft's Future Plans?!?

What if...<br /><br />Now that Microsoft has a majority of the world using Windows, what if they release the core for free (but not open source), and then licensed software manufacturers to use the core. This makes them look like heroes to the average user, knocks their piracy R&#38;D and operational costs to almost nothing, and provides easier litigation against companies for piracy. They would basically be selling rights to their market share.<br /><br />That aside, anyone have any guesses on how Win 7 is going to be sold? I am betting that they sell a very basic core, that you purchase add on modules for. This keeps the size down, and speeds up the functionality. Oh, and is also the exact way that Linux installs (minus the price of course).<br /><br />By the way, just so I can be the first one to draw the relationship...<br />Windows 7 - Seven deadly sins, seven ways to Win...<br />Is this the seventh sign?

[ittesi259]

Do you not read?

they said they won't turn it into a product....

[SJ2571]

Imaginary words

There's no such word as "productizing". All they had to say was "marketing" or "selling". I hate ******** buzzwords.

[jscott418]

Don't say ME again Microsoft

OK I remember Windows ME edition. I do not think Microsoft wants <br />to go there.

[Impreza WRX]

!

jscott418 is immediately struck by lightning because he mentioned that version of Windows.

[alegr]

So what

Windows XP kernel (ntkrnlmpa) is about 2 MB. HAL adds 130 KB. All drivers summed (even if they're not all loaded) are 20 MB, of those about 3.5 MB is nvidia driver. That's it. So what's a big deal?<br />Vista is about the same.

[ethana2]

POSIX? No? Screw it.

And the license? Proprietary? Yeah, screw it.<br /><br />Don't open source it. We don't need more division in our community. Just take it in the back yard and shoot it. We have ReactOS and WINE.<br /><br />Microsoft did three things right over the course of their existence. (...But they vary depending on who you ask.)

[The_Decider]

Very,very poor comparison

Is it too much to ask for CNET to hire technically competent writers.<br /><br />To compare a kernel with an complete OS is not even apples and oranges.<br /><br />Even with Microsofts extremely loose definition of what is an operating system.

[shadfurman]

to compare

to compare the entire thing is really kinda hard. What IS windows, and what are just add-ons. My copy of linux is over 2gigs and it doesn't do half the stuff vista does. I'm not really defending vistas faults, but I don't think the point of the article was to compare the kernel with a full operating system.

[Mystigo]

Kernels To Kernels

The current Vista kernel is vastly bigger then the kernel being <br />discussed here. It is full of bells and whistles and includes a <br />graphics system. I believe the author has characterised the issue <br />fairly.<br /><br />Many of these "extras" are considered inappropriate for a kernel, <br />for reasons of resource usage and security. What Traut is <br />demonstrating is a more streamlined, much smaller kernel, <br />which could ultimately serve as a model for a more secure, <br />efficient version of Windows, with much of the unnecessary <br />functionality moved out of the mission-critical kernel.

[Gayle Edwards]

I think what this may actually represent...

I think (based upon Microsoft various product, and marketing, roadmaps) that, essentially, this next "kernel" may well be a part of a stripped-down terminal-client ("Windows client"). This, new, "OS" will eventually be used to move consumers towards their [Microsofts] "software as a service" model. In other words... a minimal "OS" which is actually designed, primarily, to act as a "loader-stub" for various "Windows-Live" (subscription-based) networked-services.<br /><br />Frankly, I, personally, think such a plan (by Microsoft) is a terrible idea for consumers, businesses, technologists, and the computer-industry. It is, so-clearly, specifically designed to reassert Microsofts control over the industry, and consumers, as well as computer-use, in general. And, frankly, I think it just puts far too much control (and, potentially unending, forced revenue-extraction power) in the hands of a (proven to be repeatedly-abusive, and arrogant) monopoly.<br /><br />Maybe, thats why so many are resisting adopting Microsofts products, and goals, at this time.

[xzr56]

Geoworks' GEOS vintage 1990 is much better...

How disappointing... it is almost 2008 and Microsoft with all it's gajillions of dollars still can't put out anything as nice as the slimmer and much more beautifully designed GEOS based OS and application package originally sold by Geoworks.

[rapier1]

oh come on now

I was running geos back in 1992 and while it was a fine OS for its time I can't imagine anyone seriously saying that its superior to XP or even 95.

[pugster]

They are finally learning...

With their one size fits all mentallity finally caught up with them with their bloated OS. Microsoft with their 'innovation' can't even get an OS for intel's MID market. Microsoft's inability to strip down their kernel to fit devices with limited memory and processor capability is going to be their weakness.

[GGGlen]

It was easy

All Microsoft needed to do, was to remove the word "Microsoft" <br />from each line of Vista code.<br />That alone slimmed the kernel down by 3.5 GB.

[iBuzz]

What about battery life?

We've seen this thing before back in the 90's when Microsoft claimed they minified Windows. The result was Windows CE and the big problem it had was terrible power management which resulted in poor battery life in the devices that used it.<br /><br />It sounds like this is someone just hacking through the Windows source code to produce some stripped down version. As a result, this version is not likely to be optimized for use in mobile devices, where such features like good power management need to be designed-in from the beginning.

[coolc_43]

Windows get a mini-me

I have not used vista yet I am running Windows XP home on the computer I am using now. The other computers in the other room are using Windows XP Pro <br />and Windows 98. The Windows 98 computer is not on line it is used to play games on itself. I know I would have to build a computer to run vista because<br />my old computers cannot run it.

[mvpcarl]

Huh

What are you talking about? lol

[mikand1]

DOS, anyone?

Interesting. Sounds a bit like DOS...<br />"And the end of all our searching shall be to return to the place where we started and know it for the first time"

[zgreenwell]

My thoughts exactly...

sounds like DOS.

[morrie 52]

What is bloat ware Now.

In the not to distant past the was a relevance to the power and size of OS,but in the present were dual and quad cores running with faster and faster processes with 4 mb cache and 500 Gb of hard drive are becoming the norm,so I do not understand why this a problem now.

[Penguinisto]

Well, imagine this...

I do 3D/CG artwork. One process in pursuing my wee muse involves a nasty little thing known as "rendering" - the process of turning a complex visual 3-dimensional algorithm into a 2-dimensional image, one that is properly shaded and lit.<br /><br />Now, rendering a typical 1024x768 image in 1999, on a Pentium 3 w/ 512MB of RAM, would take, say, 15 minutes. Today, using the same programs, same settings, and same mesh on a Vista-loaded Core Duo box w/ 4GB of RAM takes... 15 minutes. <br /><br />Funny... the hardware has literally pentupled in horsepower and then some. The apps are the same. The mesh density and all the variables in the image haven't changed. <br /><br />The OS on the other hand has managed to eat all the extra gains. <br /><br />/P