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June 11, 2009 11:27 AM PDT

Who wins, loses with browser-less Windows 7

by Ina Fried
Windows 7

Microsoft's move to offer Windows 7 in Europe without a browser may help rivals, but it could make life more difficult for European consumers, particularly those who want to upgrade their existing machines.

As first reported earlier on Thursday by CNET News, Microsoft plans to ship Windows 7 to both PC makers and retail stores with Internet Explorer removed.

Now, most people will get Windows 7 on a new PC. Presumably, in that case, the computer maker will chose to add back Internet Explorer, include one or more rival browsers, or do both.

Indeed, that is what Microsoft itself is suggesting.

"Microsoft recommends that OEMs pre-install either IE8 or at least one other browser of their choice before distribution," Microsoft said in a memo to PC makers that was seen by CNET News. "If you do this, your end users in the European territory should be able to access the Internet without any additional steps or inconvenience."

The real hassle comes for those who want to upgrade their existing PC to Windows 7.

Moving from Windows Vista to Windows 7 can normally be done via an upgrade that preserves one's applications and data. However, because it removes the browser, moving to the "E" version of Windows 7 can only be done with a clean installation.

At that point, users have a system with no browser at all. So if they want Firefox or Opera or any other browser, they have no easy way to get it. For its part, Microsoft plans to make it as easy as possible for them to get IE. It will offer it via CD-ROMs at retail stores and via FTP, an old file downloading technique that has been largely sidelined due to modern browsers.

Forrester Research analyst J.P. Gownder said that the result is something that is very unfriendly to the very consumers that the EU is allegedly trying to protect. The European Union said in January that it had reached a preliminary finding that the inclusion of a browser within Windows violated its antitrust laws.

"It's a disaster caused by poor regulatory oversight," he said."It's definitely regulation gone wild and it's not going to help the consumer."

Matt Rosoff, an analyst with Directions on Microsoft, said the software maker probably made the move in an effort to avoid further regulatory action on the part of the European Union, which said in January that it believed the inclusion of a browser in Windows was a violation of European antitrust law.

"I guess Microsoft has taken the preemptive move to avoid a big fine," he said. "The EU didn't ask them to do this. They are still fighting the statement of objections."

Audio

What a browser-less Windows 7 means
CNET News intern Mats Lewan talks to reporter
Ina Fried about the impact of a browser-less Win7
on the market and European consumers.

Download mp3 (2.89MB)

So who benefits? Well, PC makers stand to gain, because they now have a more valuable piece of real estate to sell. In the past, they could offer deals to include rival browsers as the default on a new PC, but they were still shipping a PC with Internet Explorer. Presumably now, a browser maker could strike a deal to be the only browser on a machine.

"It certainly gives them a new placement to sell," Rosoff said. "Previously, with IE included, there wasn't as much incentive for browser makers to strike these kind of deals."

Of course, striking an exclusive deal would probably take a lot of cash. So it would seem Google, and not Opera (which brought the EU complaint), is in the best position to take advantage of the new landscape.

Gownder said he expects most new machines sold in Europe will still come with Internet Explorer, though some smaller PC makers might opt to exclude Microsoft's browser.

"It could be that there are some deals cut," Gownder said. "I would think the more typical case is that they ship with IE or IE plus one other."

As for Microsoft, Rosoff said that the company plans to offer an "Internet Pack" disc that includes not only IE, but also its Windows Live programs such as Windows Live Mail and Windows Live Messenger.

Editors' note: Matt Rosoff is a member of the CNET Blog Network.

During her years at CNET News, Ina Fried has changed beats several times, changed genders once, and covered both of the Pirates of Silicon Valley. These days, most of her attention is focused on Microsoft. E-mail Ina.

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Add a Comment (Log in or register) Showing 1 of 6 pages (298 Comments)
by monkeyfun14 June 11, 2009 11:35 AM PDT
Exactly
Reply to this comment
by slickuser June 11, 2009 12:20 PM PDT
EU shareware developers & 3rd party developers should sue MS for shipping modem dialer, tcp/ip stack etc
with Windoze. Because user can't try such products from other developers.

EU should make Microsoft only ship the kernel to EU consumers!!!!

Yeah, lets do that...
by JasonCe June 11, 2009 12:34 PM PDT
This is a POOR regulartory oversight. EU once again forgot that the whole purpose of regulation is to help the consumer.

I have another suggestion for EU: I own a company that produces notetaking software and Microsoft is hurting(!) the competition by shipping Notepad in Windows. I think no operating system should come with a notepad or a calculator, or

These guys should really wake up. A web browser is an integral part of any serious operating system. I would argue it is as critical as having TCP/IP support or an application programming interface. Web has become the new application delevelopment platform. An operating system must have native HTML, XML, Javascript, ...etc support to even be relevant. Asking Microsoft to remove IE is like saying they have to remove any other application programming interface like Win32 APIs. Where will this end? What if tomorrow Google comes up with their own memory management <or insert your favorite OS subsystem here> subsystem. Should Microsoft be forced to remove Windows memory manager not to hurt the competiton? Should I download my choice of memory manager before being able to start using my new PC? How does that help the consumer?

This is all EU crap.
by Hunnter2k3 June 11, 2009 12:41 PM PDT
@JasonCe
>An operating system _must_ have native HTML, XML, Javascript

And where exactly is this in Windows at the moment? Woops, that's right, it isn't, unless you believe in that Microsoft thinks you need in a browser: crippled HTML support, crippled XML, crippled CSS, crippled JavaScript.
Microsoft are almost coming up to being a decade behind in this area, and that is just sad.
I'm just happy conditional comments and browser sniffing is possible in IE.
by michael_j_x June 11, 2009 1:09 PM PDT
and how are we supposed to download any browser without a browser to access the download pages?
by highwayismyway June 11, 2009 1:22 PM PDT
Ubuntu...Its free...Its customizable. It works better than Windows. Comes with market leading Firefox installed. All you have to do is tell yourself your tired of Microsoft and their monopolistic..bully ways. And when they get caught they take it out on you the customer. Sure they could have given their customers the choice to automatically download their choice of browser being firefox or internet exploder. But they had to be no nice. Thanks microsoft for making your cusotmers mad again. Go to www.ubuntu.com and download a CD image to install Ubuntu. It has a free trial without modifications to your hard drive. Scrap Internet exploder, scrap microsoft word, replace them with industry leading firefox and open office. Say goodbye to all the Redmond control cows once and for all. I tell you unless you tried this you will be swallowing all the paid for microsoft poster boys, telling you it won't work...blah blah blah. But they know if you try it and spend a day getting used to it, then you will never ever have to put up with Vista and Windows 7 flops again.
by SoarNut June 11, 2009 1:23 PM PDT
Will Apple be forced to remove Safari? How about leveling the playing field completely and removing browsers from all operating systems.

Just plain stupid!
by Thranx June 11, 2009 1:35 PM PDT
It's not poor oversight on the part of EU gov't... it's ignorance. MS does not force it's browser on users. It's a value added feature that most people consider essential... like a CD player in your car. Sure, you can put in something else if you like, but the maker's not going to ship the car without one.

Why is Apple allowed to ship a productivity suite with thier OS? Safari's also there. Why? Because no one cares. They're such a tiny slice of the market that the most restrictive OS (OS X) just gets a pass. If the EU is going to mandate something like this, it's unfair and unbalanced to enforce it on one manufacture. I demand that they enforce the removal of any browser that ships as a part of the OS. OS X should not ship with Safari given this ruling.
by cosuna June 11, 2009 2:17 PM PDT
@JasonCe: People buying IE8-less Windows 7 aren't loosing anything. WinForms has a browser like interface.

One could create a WPF or WinForms app, to allow anyone to download any browser.

Forcing IE8 is just one way Microsoft's forcing it's way in. Vista was another, but thank God... Vista is history.
by BingItOn June 11, 2009 3:39 PM PDT
@cosuna

Not sure IF IE ActiveX control will be there if there is no IE8 installed on the machine. Also every one cannot write WPF or windows application using IE control to browse the net.

EU just wanted money from MS and now it is solid reply by removing IE, EU gets nothing except frustrated cosumer trying to figure out how to browse the net.
by bugma302 June 12, 2009 12:41 AM PDT
Ubuntu highwayismyway? Oh you poor deluded fool - Linux Mint, that's what they should be using!
See more comment replies
by sargess25 June 11, 2009 11:40 AM PDT
"Who wins ..... with browser-less Windows 7?"

the customers
Reply to this comment
by darkxeno June 11, 2009 11:45 AM PDT
Only the customers that understand how to get the different browser and the differences between them.
by _Me__ June 11, 2009 12:07 PM PDT
@sargess25


how is removing ie from windows a win situation for customers? how is the extra headache of getting ie or the alternative a win situation for customers when they can more easily go to mozilla or any other browser's website and download it when windows is loaded with ie?
[CNET editor's note: Personal attack deleted.]
by blackberryken June 11, 2009 12:11 PM PDT
You have got to be kidding? How can the customer win anything? They have a computer designed for internet and no possible way to get there. In the tech world of 15+ years I have rarely worked on a computer system that the customer had any concept of getting online past clicking an icon that was already on their desktop. Now, I understand there are MANY customers who can/will be able to install a browser of their choice but for the much larger percentage of the base they will need it done for them........... now I owning a repair facility, well I guess that turns into profits for me. Profits that come at a cost to the end user. I hardly think that is what the EU had in mind when they forced this absurd law down the "customer's" throat but that is the end result.

Way to go EU!
by reboog711 June 11, 2009 12:57 PM PDT
How do I get an alternate browser if I don't already have a browser?
by Spartan_458 June 11, 2009 1:06 PM PDT
Actually, only the EU wins, because they're nuts about over-regulating everything. Consumers who don't know how to get another browser are content to stay with IE, those who do are not. It's as simple as that. This is a great example of a government trying to do something for the "greater good" while actually making it worse.
by forever4now June 11, 2009 1:56 PM PDT
I think one of the biggest winners, as the article says, are the PC makers. Now, even Microsoft will have to pay, to have IE pre-installed on new PCs.

To make things even fairer, I think PC makers should be required to limit the installation of any one browser to say 25% of all new machines. This would:

1. prevent browser vendors with deep pockets (Microsoft, Google, Apple, ...) from "purchasing" 100% share.

2. make it easier for future browser vendors to bring their browser products into the mainstream.

People purchasing these new PCs could stick with the browser that was pre-installed by the PC maker (which many would) or install their preferred browser and uninstall the original.
by Michichael June 11, 2009 2:30 PM PDT
I think I need to move to Germany or another member of the EU and start a tech business!
by NPGMBR June 12, 2009 6:12 AM PDT
forever4now - That almost made sense up until the PC manufacturer reaches that 25% Chrome limit and can't sell any more so the government is forceing it to offer Firefox, IE and Safari. This then puts the PC manufacturer in a position of losing sales and driving customers away because those customers want Chrome (or whatever) and can't get it from the manufacturer of their choice because of a government mandate.

Government should simply allow the consumer to make the choice and it should be made when the consumer is ordering the PC just as they choose what size hard disk they want and memory. By simply getting out of the way the government can solve the problem and let the market decide what they want.
by vrok_ June 12, 2009 6:57 AM PDT
Indeed. I'm a customer and I'm also not a moron. Less crappy bloatware in my future gaming OS is good stuff. I'll definitely be getting a version without IE/WMP.
by fletchb June 14, 2009 11:34 AM PDT
Exactly sargess25. I don't want my OS bloated with an insecure browser. I want to decide if and what browser my computer will have. Glad all of this is finally catching up with MS.
See more comment replies
by slickuser June 11, 2009 11:40 AM PDT
Would the filthy EU stop MS from offering free anti-virus service with Windoze because it may harm
competitors from making money ?

nobody cares of browser except geeks who know the difference between different browsers.
Reply to this comment
by NickH June 11, 2009 12:02 PM PDT
The EU wont stopping Microsoft **offering** anything for free - what they dont like tying.
by slickuser June 11, 2009 12:15 PM PDT
Does MS charges users separately for IE? No. It is a stock app!

Why is that tying?
by NickH June 11, 2009 12:21 PM PDT
Its tying because;

#1 Microsoft has a monopoly in Operating Systems

#2 There is a separate market for Browsers

#3 Microsoft unconditionally include their browser in to their monopoly product, thereby distorting the market.

That's the classic antitrust argument, anyway.
by JasonCe June 11, 2009 12:46 PM PDT
Saying that there is a separate market for browsers and therefore a major OS vendor should not be allowed to ship their OS with a browser is like saying there is a separate market for radios and therefore a major automobile vendor should not be allowed to build a car with a radio in it.

On the other hand, you may also argue that there is a separate market for calculators. There is a separate market for notepads. So does that mean Windows should not be allowed to ship with any accessories? There is a separate market for almost everything you can think of. Does that mean no (sub)product should be allowed to be shipped with some other (sub)product?

Please name me a single consumer operating system that does not ship with a browser. A single one! Why does EU not tell Apple to remove Sarafi?

As always, there is a separate set of rules for Microsoft, and a separate rules for everybody else. And they call this justice (!) It sucks to be in EU.
by Hunnter2k3 June 11, 2009 12:54 PM PDT
@JasonCe

"Too big to fall"
I think that pretty much sums up the current affairs in America at the moment over this depression.
Who decides who is too big to fall?

If FTC never used a separate set of rules for MS back then, this wouldn't even be a problem now.
I wish MS were broken in 2 separate divisions... but Microsoft's OS was an exported good, a very popular exported good, and the rest is history.
by gggg sssss June 11, 2009 6:15 PM PDT
@nickh there is a separate market for calculator apps too - but who cares?
by Lerianis3 June 12, 2009 2:05 AM PDT
I wouldn't say that NOBODY cares..... apparently, the EU idiots in charge cared enough to pass a bad resolution saying that Microsoft was 'non-competing' when the fact is that EVERY OS has a browser bundled in with it. Linux: Firefox. OSX: Safari!

There is no difference between what MS is doing and what those other companies are doing. Sometimes, different rules for MS because it is a 'de-facto' monopoly are good.... this is a BAD rule.
by unifex_ June 12, 2009 10:04 AM PDT
My sentiments exactly. What's the big difference between browsers anyway? And aren't they free? Hello? They are free! So what kind of damages are these people are talking about?
by unifex_ June 12, 2009 10:10 AM PDT
@NickH - what kind of browser market are you talking about? They are all free! How's that a market? When you use any browser to reach the internet, does advertising depend on your browser type with payments made to the browser manufacturer? I don't think so. So what's the big deal anyway? And, are the differences between browsers so big? I have Firefox and IE8 installed, sometimes I use both to go to the same site if I have doubts that the site is shown correctly. Guess what? I see exactly the same thing? Is one significantly faster than the other? Not really, not to my naked eye and that's all that matters. So the whole thing is so blown out of proportion.
by deanbvfx June 14, 2009 9:20 AM PDT
@JasonCe - There IS a separate market for car radios, hence having a Kenwood radio in a Ford. Ford make cars n thats it, stuff like radios, batteries, seats etc are made by different companies.
Now you'll have 'The Car'(OS) made by just MS, The Dealer can throw in whatever radio or GPS(browser) they want.
Much like many throw in Google Desktop to replace Sidebar.

@Unifex - Browser type does depend on what advertising you see, If I type something into IE8s address bar I get taken to MS's own search engine, with it's own adverts, which MS get a cut of. In Firefox n co it's generally Google thats default so you get Google advertising n sponsored links. Also IE has pre-made bookmarks to MSN, Hotmail etc, which each page will have more advertising MS gets a cut from. It's one of hte main complaints of the EU's anti-trust is that MS are using there browser to control the web when it should just be selling its OS and leave browsers as a separate market for it to go after. Mozilla, Google, Opera don't have their own OS with which to ship their own browser on, MS do and are using that ability unfairly.
by darkxeno June 11, 2009 11:43 AM PDT
LOL I see this as becoming a "I hate Windows 7 theme because I loaded it and couldn't get online."
I think about 60% of IE users don't know there are other options out there or even how to get them, add in not being about to jump online to download it easily and we has the recipe for another Vista like thought run about the OS being horrible. I only see this as more headaches to the techs who repair and the phone crews for PC makers.
Reply to this comment
by gefitz June 11, 2009 11:48 AM PDT
"...how to get them..." Without a browser, no less! Maybe they can dig up an old copy of AOL v3 on floppy.
by darkxeno June 11, 2009 11:55 AM PDT
@ gefitz
Oh god AOLv3 the horrors of the past come back to haunt us......
by Thranx June 11, 2009 1:37 PM PDT
That's an excellent point. How does one get another browser ... without having a browser to retrieve it with! IE is the facilitator for Firefox, Opera and Chrome!
by dumbspammers June 11, 2009 1:52 PM PDT
I can only assume that there is not a single person in this thread who has ever written a Web page in a text editor and uploaded it using the ftp protocol.

Bloody Luddites probably think you have to have Outlook Express to read email, too.
by mattumanu June 11, 2009 5:44 PM PDT
Dumbspammers, if you know how to do this, please enlighten the millions of European Union people who do not know how to do all of this without a browser... Instead of acting like a child.
by gggg sssss June 11, 2009 6:16 PM PDT
@dumbspammers but next they will say MS is not supposed to bundle ftp becaus ethee is indeed a separate market ( or once was) for ftp apps.
by timber2005 June 11, 2009 7:23 PM PDT
*is a smart replier* FTP - File Transfer Protocol. How you typically download anyway.
The support was removed from IE7... and moved to Explorer (which still comes with windows). Just enter a FTP address such as ftp://www.firefox.com/latest_firefox.exe and vola!
by unifex_ June 12, 2009 10:12 AM PDT
I really don't believe that 60% of IE users do not know of other browsers. But, I do believe that 60% of IE users can't see any difference between browsers and thus, why bother?
by Seaspray0 June 12, 2009 1:51 PM PDT
@dumbspammers. I know exactly what you are talking about since I've written scripts that do just that automatically. You can pass parameters directly to ftp.exe with a text command file. This means you can have it automatically log on, go to a specific directory (local and ftp) and have it upload or download files specified in the command file. Downloading a browser can be regulated to a single link on the desktop which calls ftp.exe and passes a prebuilt command file... and no present installation of a browser is required. Excellent call on mentioning the capabilities on ftp.exe.
by Aaron Kempf June 11, 2009 11:48 AM PDT
I think that the EU is quashing innovation, and I would like to annex them - using our army - into the great United States.
Reply to this comment
by marcusmaedl June 11, 2009 4:36 PM PDT
you get your ass kicked regularly by bicycle pushers or towel heads...Good luck annexing some real opponents... :)
by blafouille June 12, 2009 12:24 AM PDT
don't you try that somewhere else recently....
by Lerianis3 June 12, 2009 2:08 AM PDT
by marcusmaedl June 11, 2009 4:36 PM PDT
you get your ass kicked regularly by bicycle pushers or towel heads...Good luck annexing some real opponents... :)
_____________________________________-

Seeing as how those 'towel heads' have managed to kill 10K soldiers, I think they are a 'real opponent'. Seeing as how France has buckled everytime that someone has challenged them after a SMALL amount of fighting and seeing how wimpy the EU has gotten.... I think we would EASILY take everything in Europe, including Russia!
by gsigas June 12, 2009 8:37 AM PDT
If the U.S. tried to use pre-emptive military force against the EU there would probably be a revolution, military/civilian coup or civil war against the U.S. government that attempted it so it will probably never happen.
by Seaspray0 June 12, 2009 2:01 PM PDT
@aaron kempf. Check out the movie "The Mouse That Roared" by Peter Sellers. Plot: An impoverished backward nation declares a war on the United States of America, hoping to lose.
by BadLikeYaas June 11, 2009 11:51 AM PDT
What came First the chicken or the egg?
You use IE to download Fire Fox, Chrome, Opera et al
Or may be you find some thing on some crap ware CD
This will be a big problem
Reply to this comment
by slickuser June 11, 2009 12:16 PM PDT
hehe
by blafouille June 12, 2009 12:25 AM PDT
obviously you do not know how to operate a computer,they know better in EU
by BadLikeYaas June 12, 2009 7:52 AM PDT
by blafouille June 12, 2009 12:25 AM PDT
obviously you do not know how to operate a computer,they know better in EU

Yes I do but lets pretend I only know the basics
I would need to google how to do it
oh thats right I don't have a browser
It is the experts like you who fail to understand that a computer should be something easy to use
When use get in your car you don't need know anything more than driving unless your are an
enthusiast.
by unifex_ June 12, 2009 10:18 AM PDT
@ BadLikeYaas Actually, computers have many more uses other than reaching the internet. In fact, despite the latest trend, computers are mostly tools for something else, rather than internet. So, surely, if you are buying a netbook or something designed with the only purpose of reaching the internet, then having no browser is nonsense. However, I see no problem buying a computer without a browser preinstalled. That said, the whole issue is really stupid and what is the sure thing - I will never pay a penny for a browser.
by deanbvfx June 14, 2009 9:30 AM PDT
Well if you just buy a PC form a store chance are it'll have IE8 on it installed already. EU haven't banned IE8 of computers, MS just can't bundle it. So now when ordering Nero, n McAfee for their PC OEM's will have to add IE8, FF or Chrome or whatever to the list too.
It only becomes an issue for enthusiast that make their own PC's with an OEM version of Win7, but we tend to have a copy of FF or similar lying about anyway.
by Rolker June 11, 2009 11:52 AM PDT
Sorry for the this question, but how can you download a browser without using another browser?
I'm using Firefox which I downloaded using IE. If I don't have any browser on my PC, I really don't know how to download it, and I think that there are a lot of people with the same "problem" as me...
Reply to this comment
by markedman0965 June 11, 2009 11:59 AM PDT
You can download them via ftp. If an OS does not contain an integrated FTP client then you would need to have one installed such as filezilla.
by Rolker June 11, 2009 12:03 PM PDT
I know how to use filezilla, ftp etc. But I'm sure that a lot of people don't.
And if the OEMs don't supply the browser, most people will be stuck without a browser.
I think that the EU should obligate the OEMs to install at least one browser, or at least ask the costumer which browser will he/she want.
by dminott June 11, 2009 12:05 PM PDT
You can use FTP. There are many FTP programs available for free.
I think it is pretty stupid for the EU to do this to their poor countrymen (and women!)
Maybe Microsft should put a moratorium on EU sales for a while, until the EU learns what their people really want...
by darkxeno June 11, 2009 12:07 PM PDT
How many standard PC IE users know what FTP is and how to use it?
The problem is if you read my above post a lot of people that use IE cause its there and don't understand how to get a different one or want to learn how to.
by SergeM256 June 11, 2009 12:09 PM PDT
That's why MS would provide some quick link to install IE - shortcut on desktop "Download and Install browser" one click and browser installed and many users would not even realize that OS was originally without browser.
by Hunnter2k3 June 11, 2009 12:14 PM PDT
Simple.

Icon on all desktops that say "Internet"
When clicked, it shows a window that shows options for browsers.
You click it, it will:
1) Run browser if installed
2) Install browser, see 1.
3) Download browser, see 2 and 1.
This is such a simple thing to do.

And who knows, maybe it will actually drive Microsoft to make a decent package manager, unlike that terrible excuse for a manager we are stuck with by default.
And a win for them for selling 1st AND 3rd party programs through some sort of MS App shop? (as well as allowing free programs as usual)
Steal my idea Microsoft, you know it is good, and it will instantly nullify any anti-trust lawsuits if you do it right.
by slickuser June 11, 2009 12:21 PM PDT
how could Microsoft ship integrated ftp client? isn't that tying?

remove that as well
by Hunnter2k3 June 11, 2009 12:33 PM PDT
@ slickuser

Unlike IE, the FTP exe is perfectly fine.
Microsoft used IE to lead.
Microsoft deliberately buckled IE to hold back others. (and STILL are)
Microsoft built ActiveX to hold on to users by allowing it to have access to OS resources, which allowed developers a lot of freedom.
^- because of this, millions of PCs are still running IE6, a terrible browser with holes everywhere, and terrible support for web standards. (not that IE8 is any better)
Also, they canned it too, so good luck running a newer IE in Company X with all this ancient code.
This is why this whole case came about.

Nobody uses FTP enough to care about it.
by baggyguy1218 June 11, 2009 1:30 PM PDT
Rolker Makes a very basic and very real point!!! NO BROWSER NO GOING ONLINE TO GET A BROWSER, OR FTP CLIENT!! Its like we are taking crazy pills here! If Safari shipped with Windows would the EU sue MS for tying a competitors browser with theirs?

Also why is Apple, or the numerous flavors of linux not being sued or regulated? I could care very little about what OS ou use or how much you paid for your computer but atleast let me make the choice to buy something that works!
by Shonumi_Ikuzumo June 11, 2009 2:00 PM PDT
I get tired of the argument that Linux distrobutions should be regulated like Windows. For one thing, their market share isn't significant enough to constitute a monopoly, niether does Mac OSX even with 10% or so. Secondly, few Linux distros outside of Ubuntu are pre-installed on computers, thus, installing Linux is more often than not a choice made by the user. I could never imagine someone selling Slackware laptops (I'd buy one though).

When you install the distro, you'll know what you're getting, most distro websites tell you what they put in their latest version and such a said browser is completely abstract of the surrounding OS allowing for a total removal, which was *not* the case of IE in any version of Windows that I have used ('95 - Vista).

Thirdly, and this is my major point, most distros aren't sold, they're given away, free as in beer and free as in free speech. Linux distros by and large aren't "products", they're the kernel plus compilations of software and configuration settings. It's inane to regulate something that is being passed freely between people who are making the choice for themselves whether or not to have it in the 1st place.
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by Methuss June 11, 2009 11:53 AM PDT
This may seem an odd statement considering how many holes IE tends to have, but this will likely lead to less secure computers in the EU region. Why? Because you can't do Windows Update or automatic updating unless IE is installed.

So basically an entire region of the world will have to download and install KB updates manually.

Yeah...that's going to happen... not. Consumers, by and large, don't update anything unless it is set up for them to do so automatically.
Reply to this comment
by darkxeno June 11, 2009 11:59 AM PDT
I do believe they have changed how the Windows Updater works and no longer needs IE as its core running platform. It using its now a part of the control panel items and runs threw there. It may call parts of the IE library that all parts of windows uses and will not be removed due to that. Just like how Vistas updater worked but much more improved to run without IE.
by NickH June 11, 2009 12:04 PM PDT
Windows Update doesnt use IE in Windows 7, just like it didnt use it in Vista.
by SyonATL June 11, 2009 12:29 PM PDT
...since Vista, Windows updates are no longer facilitated thru the browser
by Methuss June 11, 2009 1:46 PM PDT
darkxeno, nickh, and syonatl:

That is not quite correct. Although Vista and Windows 7 use a different interface to show the user what is going on with a windows update and no longer is tied to the Windows Update website, it still uses the core IE files to facilitate the download. A Vista system with brute-force removed IE (Using VLite) will not download automatic updates.
by fungie5 June 11, 2009 7:20 PM PDT
@Methuss -

The version of Windows 7 that is going to ship without IE8 is still going to have the HTML rendering engine and associated files, the favorites archive and DLLs for local use by Windows components and other installed apps. The OS can't operate properly without them. What will be missing will be the files associated only with IE8 such as the IE8 executable.

I don't know why any of you guys actually think that OEMs in the EU aren't going to have the sense to install alternative browsers with their new PCs. It's a small matter to have the additional software pre-installed. Haven't you guys noticed how easy it has become for manufacturers to install crapware?
by DigitalAngelic June 11, 2009 8:14 PM PDT
Methuss:

Yes, but IE isn't completely removed like that. This change is to help competition in the browser market, not to increase security, and none of the browser companies care if parts of IE are still used for system updates and the like. You're right, removing it through VLite will cause problems, but that's not what this is about.

As darkxeno said, "It may call parts of the IE library that all parts of windows uses and will not be removed due to that."
by Lerianis3 June 12, 2009 5:35 PM PDT
darkxeno gets it right. Windows Update in XP SP3 and later operating systems will work WITHOUT IE being installed, so systems shouldn't be 'less secure' because of that.
by  Brian June 11, 2009 11:59 AM PDT
This is most definitely disturbing news.

The reason I love my Macintosh systems is that they both come with a browser and I can use it immediately.

I have nothing against the PC. It's good to have competition, hence why I chose the Macintosh platform.
Seriously, you should be able to have a web browser from the time you power up your PC for the first time.

Competition is good, but a Windows based PC without a web browser is just plain silly.

That's like having a keyboard without a mouse and expecting the user to be able to click the icons to gain access to the system.

On that note, I hope Microsoft prevails.
Reply to this comment
by ewsachse June 11, 2009 1:07 PM PDT
The EU should force Apple to remove Safari from OS X as well.

Fair is fair.

I think the EU are complete morons for what they did to IE, just like they would be complete morons to force Safari from OS X.
by sodablue June 11, 2009 1:10 PM PDT
Don't worry. Apple will be prevented from including Safari next.

then we'll have an even playing field of useless computers.
by  Brian June 11, 2009 1:52 PM PDT
@ ewsachse & sodablue:

Imagine buying a new car and being told that the radio won't be included because they want 3rd parties the opportunity to sell you their brand.

Same thing with the integrated GPS. Sorry, but your automobile won't have that feature.

Next thing you know, it will be the tires!

This is seriously getting out of hand.
by fungie5 June 11, 2009 7:27 PM PDT
@Brian-

It's not nearly that simple. First, the car manufacturer has to have a monopoly - they're selling just about every car out there. And secondly, the car manufacturer has to be actively competing with the car radio industry that has to virtually depend only on sales to that monopoly. If every time the radio industry tries to create a distinct product, the car manufacturer copies their features and adds them to their bundled offerings, then its anti-competitive. That's what's been happening.
by blafouille June 12, 2009 12:34 AM PDT
EU is changing the rule how to provide software to use with hardware,it is good news for consumer so far...
by opinionated_jerk June 11, 2009 12:02 PM PDT
FTP is mentioned in the article... why not have icons that kick off an FTP download of the user's browser of choice? One icon each for Chrome, IE, Firefox, Safari?
Reply to this comment
by blackberryken June 11, 2009 12:19 PM PDT
WOOHOOO! Lets give the general public (who knows very little about browsers and add-ons a quick and easy way to get a non-standard browser. DON'T FLAME ME! (I personally use FF) but realistically by and large the percentage of users surfing on IE is doing so because they don't want to mess with having to track down some add-on to make a browser display multimedia or render a web page correctly.
by Hunnter2k3 June 11, 2009 12:26 PM PDT
@blackberryken
That is pretty much a non-issue, considering Flash has pretty much taken all of that market and is on near-enough every computer... (which i personally hate since Flash is still terrible. Flash, another monopoly that has resulted in terrible inefficient code for years. And the fact it is in version 10 is even worse.)

Any others are pretty much going to lose out just for streaming a WMV / AVI or whatever directly and HOPING that the end user has program X and codec Y installed.
Several video sites have already died due to this. (i forgot the one that streamed divx videos)

I haven't seen the plugin thing show up since pre FF1.
by bobmarleypeople June 11, 2009 12:42 PM PDT
I think something like this would be a good idea. Though instead of just "which internet browser do you want" have illustrated and detailed information about the browsers so users can make an informed choice instead of stabbing wildly at the "choose a browser".

Either way, an option to choose would be nice. Simply leaving out all internet browsers is stupid, though I can't wait to see "Internet Explorer" CDs in PC World just like AOL CDs.
by Hunnter2k3 June 11, 2009 12:46 PM PDT
@bobmarleypeople
>though I can't wait to see "Internet Explorer" CDs in PC World just like AOL CDs.

And hopefully growing old, just like the AOL CDs.
by hblauer June 12, 2009 10:18 AM PDT
Why just those? Don't forget, Opera started this mess. Plus there several other browsers out there. MS should ship a minimum OS and let the customers decide what browser, video, notepad, etc. and have them added by the OEM at the time of purchase. For and extra service charge, of course. As for home builders, oh well, out of luck!
by Seaspray0 June 12, 2009 3:00 PM PDT
Chances are, this is what's gonna happen... The OEM will ship a seperate disk to be included with every computer that will install IE.
by Lerianis3 June 12, 2009 5:36 PM PDT
There wouldn't even have to be one icon each for Chrome, IE, Firefox and Safari.... there could be one icon that runs a small program (shouldn't be more than 10 MB's) that is able to view ONE internet page and allow you to download those browsers.
by gary85739 June 11, 2009 12:04 PM PDT
How is it possible to get on-line without any web browser?
Reply to this comment
by THizzle7XU June 11, 2009 12:05 PM PDT
I would love to see Microsoft just say, "You know what, it's not worth it" and just pull out of EU countries completely. Let's see the reaction of the EU and it's citizens then when they all have to use Linux (which I personally love, but let's face it, people are going to be lost on it) or a Mac (2000 Euros for a Desktop will go over well).

And how do you prevent even more people from using Firefox or Opera? Make it impossible to simply go to www.getfirefox.com or www.opera.com. Great job, EU.
Reply to this comment
by Hunnter2k3 June 11, 2009 12:17 PM PDT
It would never happen, and i am a person who doesn't use "never" lightly.

If anything, they are more likely to MOVE to the EU. (and other places)
See http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAKluP7yIwJY

Also, FTP, as it has been mentioned several times now.
by blafouille June 12, 2009 12:36 AM PDT
do not talk do it...!
by rickebridges June 11, 2009 12:07 PM PDT
Another reason for me to continue blocking European networks altogether.... I already block most of the Eastern Europe ranges and country codes.
Reply to this comment
by Seaspray0 June 12, 2009 3:05 PM PDT
I've already got a couple of NS records pointing to 127.0.0.1 for some countries already. I can always add more.
by Mweaver2k9 June 11, 2009 12:12 PM PDT
Can't they include an installation folder for each competing browser, than just let the consumer decide which "shortcut" to click?
Reply to this comment
by  Brian June 11, 2009 1:53 PM PDT
That would be the best solution!
by viper396 June 11, 2009 2:43 PM PDT
Many OEM's in fact do provide multiple browsers installed.

Ultimately most consumers don't care. They just want to browse the internet and aren't concerned about which browser they use. They're more concerned about the content they are viewing, not the browser they are viewing it with.
by Kesteral June 11, 2009 3:37 PM PDT
Do you have any idea how many competing browsers are out there? There are hundreds. Who will decide which ones will be put on? MS? If they did, isn't that also a form of tying?
by Hernys June 11, 2009 7:06 PM PDT
Then Microsoft could be found liable if any of those browsers has a serious security bug or even a backdoor. Microsoft cannot include complex software from third paries without facing serious legal risks. OEMs can if they deal with the browser manufacturers directly by signing contracts that delegate the legal responsibility to them. No browser manufacturer would sign such agreements with Microsoft if the law says they will be included even if they don't.
by rickebridges June 11, 2009 12:12 PM PDT
Also, how would one search for FTP download sites for a browser (Firefox, Opera, etc) when you can't search the internet? You can obligate OEMs to load at least on browser, but what about those that are upgrading or installing Windows 7 on an existing system? Guess they now have to buy a disk with a browser on it. Yay!
Reply to this comment
by June 11, 2009 12:23 PM PDT
This has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I can understand wanting to punish Microschrott for having a monopoly in the software market. But this is only going to hurt us end-users. This only makes it more complicated for end-users. Nothing good can come from that.
Reply to this comment
by Hernys June 11, 2009 7:08 PM PDT
EU antitrust laws are not there to protect consumers, they are designed to protect companies (local companies) from foreign companies. Screw the consumers.
by Seaspray0 June 12, 2009 3:08 PM PDT
@hernys. DING DING DING! We have a winner!
by jeffrey_mccloskey June 11, 2009 12:30 PM PDT
Of course, if Microsoft REALLY was concerned about it's customers, and not just playing hardball with the EU, they COULD simply bundle Firefox and/or Opera with Windows 7 and give customers a CHOICE!

But that would be WAY to convenient.
Reply to this comment
by tomasm2005 June 11, 2009 1:12 PM PDT
Majority of the users just dont f***in care which browser they use.
They just want to browse the web.
by st430 June 11, 2009 1:18 PM PDT
"Of course, if Microsoft REALLY was concerned about it's customers, and not just playing hardball with the EU, they COULD simply bundle Firefox and/or Opera with Windows 7 and give customers a CHOICE!"
what is of their choice?
so you have to install ten browsers,
twenty antivirus software,
twenty music player,
twenty dvd writer...
etc..etc.?
how many is enough?
Do you have that space?
every software has more than 10 competitor..how you choose?
Windows give you the basic...you want more advance stuff...go buy 3rd party...
btw...how much is your computer going to cost if I bundle all the different software in the world?
don't just think U.S...different part of the world has they own software too..
like japanese or chinese softwares...
how can you bundle it all?
it's just stupid.
by El_Segfaulto June 11, 2009 1:45 PM PDT
@st430

That was the weirdest haiku I've ever read. Good points all!
by  Brian June 11, 2009 1:56 PM PDT
@st430

Exactly!

I have a Mac and instead of using iMovie (bundled with the system) to produce my YouTube videos, I use Final Cut (more expensive OPTION).

IF people want better choices, they will decide for themselves.
by SyonATL June 11, 2009 12:33 PM PDT
The logic across the water is puzzling. Even those of us who don't like IE, recognize the importance of it being in place. Consumers and corporate EU are not going to like this one bit.
Reply to this comment
by timber2005 June 11, 2009 7:37 PM PDT
Hmm, you just made an extremely interesting point...
Are IT groups in the EU going to be able to get Win7 with IE already installed? (other than IE6 included with Virtual XP).
by Seaspray0 June 12, 2009 3:10 PM PDT
@syonatl. Do you think the EU cares what consumers and corporate want? They just wanted $$$ in fines.
by HJBartz June 16, 2009 4:01 AM PDT
"by Seaspray0 June 12, 2009 3:10 PM PDT
@syonatl. Do you think the EU cares what consumers and corporate want? They just wanted $$$ in fines. "

That says it all doesnt it? It's not about the software, its not about a monopoly or breaking anti-trust laws - its all about a covert trade war against the US with MS being the meat of the day in the sandwich (who's next?). because of its 'bad boy' image.

The point about all of this is that people ALREADY have a choice about which browser they use - anybody can download an alternative browser.

The other point that should be made is that Opera initially was never FREE - it was TRIALWARE and in those days it was crapware (couldn't get rid of it quick enough). And do you really think that once IE has been knock out of the browser equation that Opera will remain free? Yea, and pigs will fly. (actually, I think that Opera already has two versions of its browser - trialware and free).
by monkeyfun14 June 11, 2009 12:37 PM PDT
What people fail to see here is that if the user doesn't know any alternative browsers what is going to make them think that a program with a name like Firefox, Opera, or Chrome. If anything this puts burdens on tech support and nephews cause they have to teach their relatives and other people how to get online. Internet Explorer just sounds like a obvious way to get online.

And people suggesting discs and ftp isn't that a bit backwards just to support your hate for Internet Explorer? "Just because I hate Microsoft and Internet Explorer so much I think it should be difficult and cumbersome for people to get online with Windows PCs" thats an exact translation to what people really mean who support this.
Reply to this comment
by Vegaman_Dan June 11, 2009 9:57 PM PDT
It's the EU... remember they aren't interested in what customers want.
by blafouille June 12, 2009 6:59 AM PDT
they do not hate Microsoft they hate monopole.....
by fletchb June 14, 2009 1:09 PM PDT
FTP link setup via icon is backward???? Simple solution and almost everyone wins: Customers who don't mind IE can click on the link and get it. Those of us who do mind are not stuck with it. MS would lose only because they couldn't force IE on everyone anymore
by Kaleborn June 11, 2009 12:37 PM PDT
Don't see why Microsoft can't right a little utility that uses some rudimentary http functionality over port 80. Have it point to a site that contains a list of Window 7 - compatible browsers and allows the user to kick off the install executable for the browser of their choice.

This utility wouldn't be a full browser just an app with a very specific purpose. It would be up to each browser maker to ensure their 'install' page was compliant with the way this utility works. This way a user wouldn't have to know a URL or FTP site, it's hosted centrally under the 'works with Windows 7' banner or something.

Obviously MS would only do this if they were serious about maintaining some impartiality concerning browsers on their OS. They'd help mitigate any PR disasters with users unable to browse the web after firing up their shiny new Windows 7 OS. You can almost hear the "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" ad guys salivating over this already...
Reply to this comment
by tomasm2005 June 11, 2009 1:13 PM PDT
But why should a paying customer have to wait to get the software to access the net, AFTER he paid for his brand new system with brand new OS, when it could have been put in so that he could get on the web right away after firing up his system the first time.

Majority of the users don't want to mess with installing browsers and such. They tend to stick with what then know.
by Hernys June 11, 2009 7:10 PM PDT
> a little utility that uses some rudimentary http functionality over port 80
Because that would be a web browser. And the EU doesn't want them to include any.
by Mergatroid Mania June 12, 2009 6:16 PM PDT
Kaleborn you're absolutely right. Microsoft already includes stripped down text editor, word processor, dialer, e-mail software etc.

There's no reason they couldn't include a stripped down version of a web browser. This browser would allow you to enter a URL, and load a webpage that would only show down-load links. You could enter firefox.com, microsoft.com or whatever you wanted and then just click to download. They could even put buttons at the top of the browser that would take you to whatever site you want.

There is no excuse for not doing this other than wanting everyone to use Internet Explorer.
They should do the same thing with Mediaplayer. Include a stripped down version with basic functionality and let people download it if they want it.
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