Apple bashes Windows 7, talks Snow Leopard
Updated 10:50 a.m. PDT: Added pricing information.
SAN FRANCISCO--While Microsoft is trying to position Windows 7 as an exciting new version of the operating system, Apple on Monday tried to characterize it as the same old Windows.
In a keynote speech at the Worldwide Developer Conference here, Apple's Bertrand Serlet said the underpinnings of Windows 7 include the same complexities that have been in the past versions of the operating system.
"That's Windows 7," he said. "Fundamentally, it's just another version of Windows Vista."
Bertrand Serlet speaking at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference.
(Credit: James Martin/CNET)Serlet tried to draw a contrast between Windows and what Apple is doing with Snow Leopard, the next version of its own operating system. "We've come at it from such a different place."
But while his rhetoric suggested a fundamental difference, Serlet actually characterized Snow Leopard in some of the same ways--as a better version of the existing Leopard operating system.
"We love Leopard," he said. "We are proud of Leopard."
The goal of Snow Leopard, he said, was really "to build a better Leopard."
There are other similarities between what Apple's and Microsoft's efforts. Among the new features in Snow Leopard is a feature that adds the Expose window--previewing feature to the Dock--not unlike the Aero Peek feature that Windows 7 has as part of its new task bar.
In fairness, there are some key differences between what Apple is doing with Snow Leopard compared to what Microsoft is doing with Windows 7.
Windows 7 is largely focused on improving the look and performance of the core Vista engine, while Snow Leopard goes more under the hood, aiming to better handle 64-bit processing and multicore capabilities.
Apple is also trying to boost its Windows compatibility story by adding Exchange server capability to Snow Leopard. According to Apple, all the user has to do is fill in an e-mail address and password, and the software will "auto-detect" the Exchange Server and make the user's calendar and mail available in Mac OS X's iCal and Mail programs.
The biggest pressure from Apple, though came on the pricing front. Serlet said that Apple will ship Snow Leopard in September and charge just $29 for Leopard owners to upgrade.
Microsoft has hinted that it will offer a cheaper upgrade for Vista users to move to Windows 7, but has not announced details.
During her years at CNET News, Ina Fried has changed beats several times, changed genders once, and covered both of the Pirates of Silicon Valley. These days, most of her attention is focused on Microsoft. E-mail Ina. 
Same is true with PC's. Geeks love them because it gives them an excuse not to leave the basement, or socialize with the opposite sex.
With the Mac, it's all about productivity.
And, sure had Microsoft not created Windows Me 2.0 with Vista Apple would never have seen the growth they have. So of course they have to bash Windows 7. If it actually turns out to be what it says it is, well their goes Apple's great growth spurt, they simply because the platform for the not so smart, the platform for those that need a company to tell them to over pay and then only have they options they want to give you.
Robert
to be productive on a Mac, you need MS Office, oh the irony
Err, why would you want to bother with a cheap and limited NURBS-based modeler for that?
Don't get me wrong, Rhino nice for hobbyist uses, but seriously? On a pro level, there are far, far better tools about to get the job done (Modo, Lightwave, etc).
I admire your zealous devotion to an operating system, but you could've used a way better example if you're looking to pass yourself off as a 3D professional, yanno?
respect is earned
trolling is bad be it from Mac Windows or Linux fanboys
I'm not a 3D professional. I am a hobbyist/student doing research at a university with a limited budget. I work in ships lines and Rhino does have the best 3rd party plugins for that. I'm not trying to pass myself off as anything. And as for a zealous devotion, I simply use what's available. I run my home server on Fedora Core 9 and my media player hooked up to my TV on Ubuntu 9.04.
Every dime I can save from building lab PCs myself and using VLK copies of XP (which are bought and paid for by the university) is more money I can spend on server upgrades or a newer 3D scanner.
There are no nurbs in Lightwave or Modo an NO ONE is designing precise product with them.
Btw, both modo and lightwave run on windows of course.
You drank the entire pitcher of Kool-aid didn't you. No one NEEDS Microsoft. They've entrenched themselves into so many offices and churned out so many IT people that speak nothing but Microsoft that it appears that you need them, but you don't. Trust me, if Microsoft suddenly vaporised (God I wish), the world would not come to a crashing halt.
While Microsoft on the other hand gives you control. Microsoft has always given you more options. Sure they try to get you to stick with their products like IE. But, you don't have to you never have. You have more hardware choices, more software choices. You have a lot more freedom. With Apple you may get a bit more stability (though that does seem to have suffered when they moved over to Intel and they now seem to have to patch stuff more because of that as well, or they just got sloppy with the move.) However, with Apple you take what they give you, pay a premium for it or to damn bad.
My complaint with Microsoft is that while I like the control over (as my example above) disk defragmenation, they should have it setup to work fine without they user needing to mess with it. When you install Windows it defaults to a mode that should work well for 90% of users. However, still have the option to do it your way should you want to.
Some of the choices Microsoft has made when it comes to the interface of Windows is just stupid. Things like not being able to move and dock the quick launch bar to other sides of the screen. They said it was because in testing people got confused. Well, I am sure that is the case a lot of people aren't all that bright. So by default they should have locked it. However, they shouldn't have removed the ability for the smarter user to do what they wanted with it.
I wish OS makers and software makers would keep something in mind. Until they give us the computer for free these computers are ours. We bought them, we use them, we own them. Stop trying to take them over, stop making choices for us, ask us before you install cr@p on them, ask us before you mess with property that isn't yours and stop hiding behind legal mumbo jumbo when you do something stupid. If you would just remember that is we customers that keep you in business and by our good graces we have chosen your product to use and that means treating us with respect and putting out a good product and one that doesn't screw up our computers things will go better for you.
Apple is fine, but they over charge, take away too many options and make assumptions about the intelligence of their users. But, then maybe they should. Anyone that would pay twice the price for a product for a simple brand name and logo and then when it comes time to upgrade it have to basically toss it in the trash and buy a totally new one can't be all that smart.
Robert
"(basically there is no excuse for creating a file fragment.)"
>> That's an unrealizable goal. No file system (absolutely none) can make a guarantee that it will not create fragments. In absense of being able to predict the future, there is no way of knowing exactly how big a file is going to become in it's lifetime, and allocate exactly that much space to it. In absense of this future-predicting technology, you get fragmentation.
"While I agree that Microsoft should have had defragmentation built in to Windows at the core level"
>> This, you're right about, and they do have it built in now. i.e. the defrag util runs at odd hours when nothing else is running on the machine -- so you defrag more often now, and painlessly/transparently. The change was effected in Vista (you can still manually defrag in Vista if you so choose)
"While Microsoft on the other hand gives you control."
Really? So tell me - where's the option to completely remove IE from a Windows box? Or the option to format a typical multi-GB hard disk in something in more than just NTFS? Any idea as to when Microsoft will allow me to remove their WGA/activation code from a Windows box? Okay, how about the option to modify the Windows boot-loader to boot non-Windows operating systems, without having to resort to using BootCamp or grub? Why can't Windows allow me to create a new device with a simple command, like I can with mknod in OSX or *nix? How come Windows doesn't come with a means to modify active process parameters on-the-fly, like I can by editing a file in /proc in Linux?
I could go on for quite awhile, but you get the idea :)
And in Win7 you can completely uninstall IE because the windows no longer rely on explorer.
For people that say that PC people spend more time working on their computers than Mac people...well it is probably true, but then again I don't do it because I have to...I do it because I like to :) There are times I will intentionally try and "break" my system just so I'll have something to work on...lol. I've been using PC's for over 16 years and do notice the difference in people that use Mac's and PC's, but then you have to realize that the different systems have their different markets. I do not put down people that use Mac's since it was their choice and hopefully they bought it to use and not just for the name. but even if they did buy it "just to be cool" then hey....if they got the money...by all means do what you will...I just can't help you in that area since I haven't used a Mac in over a decade...lol. I used them back in the day for photo and video editting since that is what they were known for.
So, there is no need to bash Mac users, Linux users, or any other OS out there. They all serve a purpose and not everyone will be suited to just one OS. As for having full control and choice..you really can't beat Linux though, but again that is a whole different monster right there and is best suited to those that are really interested in computers and how they work since it does consist of a lot of reading and in most cases a few reinstalls before getting it the way you want it. It is a fun learning experience if you have the time or a spare box...lately I've been too busy with Windows 7 trying to see what it can do and so far I have to say I am very impressed. I didn't really have any issues with Vista after SP1 though either so I guess it is to be expected. Most issues are coming from people that are trying to run a top notch software on bargain bin hardware...sorry, but you will have issues. It does not take a monster PC to run, but it helps if your PC is under 6 or 7 years old...lol.
If you know how to use Terminal, there are tons of really, really advanced things you can do. None have been disabled. There are also plenty of third party utilities that put a graphical user interface on those functions. You have a huge amount of control. I like "C0CKTAIL" as one of those apps.
The main limit Apple has placed on the Mac is the graphical user interface. They used to allow that to be "skinned" but, for better or worse, they stopped because they found that it detracted from the easy to use experience, and the simplicity of moving between Macs and upgrading, etc. But under this "skin" there is no, I repeat no, lack of user control. You just don't know where to look. Just as most people who aren't power Windows users don't know where to look to control the advanced features of Windows.
As for Defragging, part of it comes from where files are logically placed on a drive, but Macs do get some file fragmentation. It just doesn't impact system performance in the same way it does on Windows, for some reason. It may be in part to HFS journaled vs. NTFS. But when a disk gets really full, the mac still does slow down due to fragmentation, and there are some defrag utilities out there.
So there you go.
Excellent comment. I really do wish they would keep that in mind. I actually pay them to complicate my computer with artifical crap that I don't want. Things like revokable drivers, DRM and such. When I install a driver I don't need my OS telling me that I can't use it because the mothership has decided my driver which works for me violates a mothership policy.
"Really? So tell me - where's the option to completely remove IE from a Windows box?"
And you can tell us how to remove Quicktime and iTunes from OS X. :)
Really, you're going to get a nosebleed if you stay on your high horse too much longer.
I would agree with you, but there's a snag... I know way too many people who want to format their USB hard disks in something that isn't NTFS so they can use it universally. There are lots of folks who would love to remove IE to protect themselves from malware (and until I see the option to do so in add/remove programs in the RTM version of 7, it's an unconfirmed theory at best :) ).
The rest I can agree with - not everyone loves to dig into a machine and tweak it to perfection.
iTunes uninstall: Go to Applications. Drag iTunes from that folder into the Trash. Remove the iTunes Helper Process.
-http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1224
Quicktime Uninstall: Run Quicktime installer. Uninstall option is right there.
It's not very hard at all, really.
So... how do you uninstall Internet Explorer from Windows again, Dan?
In particular, pay attention to the LLP64 vs LP64 part.
the page you linked is pretty nice
but it talked about 64bit WinXP more than 64bit WinVista. 64bit Vista has good driver support and is shipping on most new laptops. XP64 had, and still has lots of problems.
and it says that 32bit Windows will only run on 32bit hardware and 64bit windows will only run on 64bit hardware
I'm running WinXP Pro 32bit on an AMD64 system
"Dream on Jonathan. Look at the specs, Windows 7 is Vista prettied up. Apple has just dropped a new engine under the hood of Mac OS."
Spoken like a person who has never tried the product. You know, even Apple said that Snow Leopard was an OS Update. It doesn't have a new engine- it's a service pack.
How is it that you know more than Apple does about its own prodcuts? Are you violating an NDA by posting about it? Perhaps you need to rethink your comments.
I HAVE been using Windows 7 since the beta and not the RC. My statement is based on my personal experience and articles written by those 'in the know'.
"Service pack"? Spoken like a true Microsoft shill.
Nitwit.
Apple is billion dollar company and so is Microsoft
isn't it the product that matters !
I am not going to talk about the new features and new looks in 7, but some changes that definitely make it a different version than vista. You can't run vista with 512 Mb of Ram, but you can with 7 ( I have done it in a Virtual Machine). Now, if that does not require a major redesign, I don't know what does. Then there is the way that 7 is designed to work better with multiple cores and how it utilises the graphics card better Then, there are the new ssid drivers. Plus, a lot of stuff where moved outside the kernel space (on my machine, only 54Mb of ram are used by the Kernel). Not to mention DirectX11, which blows OpenGL 3.0 ( and the OpenCL wrap) out of the water anytime.
7 are a lot more different to Vista, than what Snow Leopard is to Leopard.
And next time, try and do some research before posting. Heres a good place to start:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-graphics-desktop-multicore-cpu,7643.html
only Apple does that
MS doesn't sell new OS every 2 years
only Apple does that"
Talk about some FUD. Yes, Apple does update more often than Microsoft but it's not for a lack of trying on Microsoft's part. Win 95->Win 98->Win ME->Win 2000 (although more of a NT upatde)->XP/XP Pro->XP Media Center->The many tries of trying to get "Longhorn" out->Vista->Win 7. I could go on, but a any reasonable person can see my point. If it were not for the Longhorn delays, Microsoft would almost be running neck and neck with Apple for updates. Hopefully both of these updates will be well worth it for those who want them (Windows and Mac OS).
To contentcreator--2008: Mac OS has had 64 bit support for years. It was all dependent on carbon and cocoa programming, for the most part. Both OS's are still dependent on the 3rd party developers to optimize for 64 bit support. That is why there is no credit due.
Yes, Snow Leopard 10.6 is a simple update and not a major new OS. That's not a bad thing. Think of it more like a Service Pack if it helps.
And Microsoft keeps getting further and further and further behind too.
@Vega
There are some really big improvements to the underpinnings of Mac OS X 10.6. If you look at what they've done, I'd call that more than a "service pack".
Since when did a Windows service pack slim down your O.S by 6 GB
and add new technologies like OpenCL etc ?
plus 29$ is a lot cheaper than Windows !
"There are some really big improvements to the underpinnings of Mac OS X 10.6. If you look at what they've done, I'd call that more than a "service pack"."
Is it a new OS? No.
Is it an update? Yes.
Is it a collection of patches and other upates? Yes.
Guess what, that's called a 'Service Pack' in the IT industry. You can call it watermelon gerbils for all it matters- it doesn't change the fact that it's an OS update and even Apple says that.
Yes, it has some new features, but it isn't a new OS. Please be clear on this fact.
@Seven7dust:
You're right, no Windows update has dropped the installed size of the OS by 6Gb and since OS X was MUCH larger than a Vista or Win7 installation, Apple is to be commended for that. Excellent work there.
"plus 29$ is a lot cheaper than Windows !"
The last time I checked, Microsoft has never charged for a Service Pack or OS patch update. I suppose you are right though- they could start charging for them like Apple does, but it just doesn't seem right to do so.
You are really trying to play with semantics aren't you? Keep trying, you're getting a little bit better.
Since your reffering to snow leopard as a service pack
wat about Windows 7 isnt it the same {2 can play at the same game}
even MS internally named it 6.1 ,didn't they ?
it'll most likely cost you about 300$ for the ultimate version too !
enjoy your Microsoft tax !
If you are calling snow leopard an update that should be free, then windows 7 should be free as well. Afterall, it is only an OS update like snow leopard, is it not?
Using your logic, I declare that Microsoft should immediately call windows 7 a service pack for windows vista. Knowing you, you would probably agree with my logic.
ckh1271 - no, osx has not had usable 64bit support for years --- not before Leopard could you do anything slightly useful (64-bit background processes = marketing b/s). And Leopard is a 32-bit OS that can run 64bit apps, unlike WinXP/Vista-64 which are 64-bit apps that can also run 32-bit apps --- which is presumably what Snow Leopard will be.
The people who were whining about it being 'slower' than XP..... I'd REALLY like to sock them one, because that was the biggest lie in history! It was no slower or faster than XP in actuality, once I did the testing after updating drivers to the latest versions a year ago.
I'm always turned off by Apple's seemingly arrogant attitude in their ads. They have great products, Microsoft has great products. Just annoys me how their whole advertising scheme seems to be centered around mocking everything Microsoft does. They should let their products do the talking.. the IPhone is fantastic and has flourished, not by ads making other ripping on the competetion, but by providing a great product.
</soapbox>
Before that, they used rock songs to "describe" their computers and iPods. Now it's smarmy people.
It may be one reason the Laptop hunter ads do work. They have "real" actors in them. Stupid people? Yes. But not smarmy. Well except for the girl who snipes she's not "cool enough" for Apple. That's pretty smarmy.
And It's not just about market share... When the Zune wasn't taking any market share they had a slide at WWDC a couple years ago showing how awful it was doing. The IPod is a "beast" and they still went out of their way to poke fun at Microsoft.
I'm not defending Microsoft, I'm just saying Apple's ads turn me off.
It's no big deal. Let each have their day in the sun.
[CNET editor's note: Offensive comments deleted.]
They are BOTH just updated OSes.
Buy what ever one you want and learn how to spell like people in the real world.
Completely wrong and off base, but it's interesting to see how your mind works.
[CNET editor's note: Content edited to remove reference to other poster's deleted comment.]
And also they make fun of building on older OSes. Windows 7 did come from Vista but doesn't Snow Leopard build on their old Leopard OS?
I keep thinking about buying a MAC to add to everything else but when they go about showing their product and have to make fun or distract from what they are competing against stops me from buying the product.
Apple please stop feeding the trolls and get your focus back on track.
BTW did Steve Jobs show up for this or did he have class and not show up for such a lame stunt?
It's a good day to reinstall Leopard because of file corruption on the OS drive again, infact. I needed to do that anyways, so today is a good day to work on the MBP.
you seem to have the worst luck with Macintosh systems while others don't
why is that ?
I'm proud to say that I haven't never had to re-install OSX not even once !
I wonder if you can prove wat you said ?
when you fail go look in the mirror and you'll know wat a troll is
It's a good day to reinstall Leopard because of file corruption on the OS drive again, infact.
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Right Dan. I know that's bull, you know that's bull and everyone else here can see that's bull, so why did you sully your name in it? Sometimes I don't know what to make of you, occasionally you seem rational (despite being on the other side of the fence, so to speak) and other times you seem like a Ballmer paid-for shill; a prostitute if you will.
The other thing, PCs get slow as they get old... my Mac works the same as the day I got it even though I've loaded tons of software on it and have stuff scattered all over the desktop. On a PC, the more apps you install ,the slower it gets. And don't you just love with the screen redraws an empty window when you shuffle things around on the PC?
Maybe because I am smart, i can afford to pay extra for the luxury of using a Mac. If you didn't work hard all your life, then hey -- maybe you should use a PC and be happy about it. I get it.
"Maybe because I am smart, i can afford to pay extra for the luxury of using a Mac. If you didn't work hard all your life, then hey -- maybe you should use a PC and be happy about it. I get it."
And comments like yours make me embarassed to own and use a MacBookPro. Talk about sounding elitist and snobbish- you take the cake.
well done on paying your extra "hard earned" bucks on getting a mac, although you could of maybe used them on getting an education, that way you could be "smart" and knowledgeable enough not to look like a condescending, ignorant moron. PCs do not run any slower than a mac if the USER has any idea what to do on them.
To quote an article i once read in the Telegraph: "Macs are nothing more than Fisher-Price activities for adults."
oh the lullz.
Apple 10% Market share
$29 Billion in cash -
$6 Billion profit per year
$33 Billion Turnover per year
Microsoft 80 % Market Share
$20.7 Billion in cash
$10 Billion profit per year
$60 Billion turnover per year
So in fact Apple with only 10% Market share is more cash rich than Microsoft!!!!!
if you did a market Share comparison then if Apple had 80 % Market share its turnover would be per year $231Billion!!!!!!
A comparison would be Microsoft = Ford and Apple = Mercedes both different and Mercedes sells luxury products this is the market Apple wants and will stays in!!!!!
And where do you get your figures?
A little fun reality check: http://www.thevarguy.com/2008/01/28/seven-stunning-facts-about-microsofts-profits/
Cash rich means nothing...cash flow is important. In fact, I would question why either company holds so much cash rather than use it to make more money!!! In microsoft's case, acquisitions are the clear answer. Why does Apple hold it? Do you put all your money in a money market or checking account? I hope not.
plus Apple competes with HP Asus Toshiba and other PC manufactures
they arent in direct competition with Microsoft actually
the Pc fanboys just love comparing Apple to oranges
to show superiority of their preferred O.S
wat they don't get is quantity =/ to quality !
either-way how much market-share do BMW mercedes and Lexus have again ?
Apple probably has more than all of them combined in computers !
I don't care how much market share Lexus or BMW has
I just know my Toyota is far more reliable than both of them
and cheaper too
Still boggles the mind why the rotten-Apple can tie safari to os x, but MS can't tie IE to Windows without big brother slamming down the hammer. POS macs...
ALL HAIL AMACLOVER2
I beat you to the punch and got a MacBook before you did. Guess what the main probelem was? People who posted reviews that said. " I purchased my first MacBook about 6 months ago and it is the best thing I have ever purchased next to my house! After owning a Mac I will never ever use another PC or anything put out by Microsoft as long as I live. It is so refreshing to own a computer that does what it is suppose to do! "
Gack. The first thing I had to do after getting my MacBook was figure out how to make it do what it's supposed to do. Fortunatly there actually are some smart Mac users who actually use their computers and have bumped into the very same issues I am and have posted how they fixed them.
For the basics the Macbook is fine. It still falls short on a lot of my needs though. You can bet my review would be a lot closer to. "Macbook. Same crap differenet OS, and crappy design of the features it does have. If you have the skill hack a Thinkpad to run OS X. You will get a better laptop out of the deal".
Don't post about something that you have no clue about. Try the Macintosh first, then speak from experience.
One doesn't say "WINDOWS"!
"Yes you do have to be a smart person to own them "
So... you're saying you have to be dumb to own a Mac? I'm sorry, but I just do not agree with that.
Your comments look largely to be made up. Considering the account you have here was just created, it makes me suspicious that you created it only to rant and then run away. Troll-behavior to be sure.
I didn't see in maclover's statement where he said his was the only opinion that mattered... he was merely speaking of his mac/pc experience. He is allowed to voice that, isn't he?
Btw, I do believe you have to be more tech-savvy if you own a pc.
I tried a Mac
I still own a dual G4 from the days Macs were good computers
a Mac is just a computer, a tool to get work done with
depending on what work you need to do, it may be better or worse than Windows or Linux
At least you were adult enough to admit it. I've used PCs my whole life, and never had a significant problem that wasn't caused by someone doing something completely idiotic.
- by ikramerica--2008 June 8, 2009 11:37 AM PDT
- Here's "the thing."
- Like this Reply to this comment
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- by homercles82 June 8, 2009 11:42 AM PDT
- Um according to what the dude from Apple said Snow Leopard is a fine tuned Leopard OS. And you say MS says it had a feature first. Doesn't apple pretend to have created the first touch screen phone?
- Like this
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- by darkxeno June 8, 2009 11:44 AM PDT
- Every Company out there copies from one another, its a fact of life.
- Like this
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- by homercles82 June 8, 2009 11:45 AM PDT
- Dark I don't know but I am sure ikramerica will have the answer!
- Like this
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Showing 1 of 6 pages (362 Comments)Ina (and regurgitating trolls above) talks about how Windows 7 "has" this Expose feature and Snow Leopard adds (copies) the same feature.
Uh... aren't the OS's being developed concurrently? Yes.
Has either been released yet for sale? No.
Has Apple had the keypress/hot corner form of Expose for years? Yes
Has Windows had any form of this in the past? No.
Will Snow Leopard arrive first? Yes.
How then is Apple integrating a feature that Windows already has, exactly? They aren't, they are expanding on a feature they developed and bringing it to market before MS copies them. That's the reality.
Next thing you know, people will attribute the invention of the Arch and the Pen to Microsoft!
Just a small point about how Windows-centric people look at the world. It's always through Windows glasses. They want everything to be like it is on Windows (whether that means it's easier or harder). They assume that if Windows has a feature, no matter how new, it is the first time it's ever been seen. They don't realize how much of what they use has been bought or copied from other companies.
I guess that's life.
Windows 7 is the end all be all of computing. We all know that. Snow Leopard was just thought up last week, and is a copy of the long established Windows 7 feature set.
One must wonder, though, what kind of engineers Apple has that can copy Windows 7 so quickly and release their version sooner. At a lower price. Microsoft should try to hire these guys!!
Snow Leopard will only be $29 because it is an upgrade to Leopard. A minor one at that just so they can push new hardware sales and not the envelope on OS's. It is called SPIN ikramerica-2008. They had to name this update new so they could push it as a NEW OS for $30 when it is just an upgrade.
Also it makes me wonder how may of these programers on both sides know each other and share ideas just to make everyone else out there look like idiots to them and so they all can have a good laugh because lets face it one way or another all of us will pay for some type of upgrade MAC or PC down the road.