Microsoft still pushing 'Apple tax' notion
With Apple's last Macworld keynote speech just hours away, Microsoft is again talking up the idea of an "Apple tax" that people pay when they opt for a Mac over a Windows PC.
It's a concept that Microsoft started touting in the fall. While the words may be fairly new, the melody sounds familiar. Saying that customers pay an added cost when using a rival is a well-worn page from the Microsoft playbook. One need only look back to the anti-Linux "Get the Facts" campaign for another example.
In any case, it is a notion that is likely to stay around, says Windows marketing VP Brad Brooks. In addition to talking up the idea with reporters, Brooks said it may show up in online marketing and potentially even in Microsoft advertisements.
Microsoft did come up with some new charts trying to put hard numbers on the "Apple tax." On the desktop side, Microsoft argues you can save $100, or 16 percent, by going for a Dell Studio Hybrid or HP Pavilion Slimline over a low-end Mac Mini. Microsoft argues that at the mid-range, a buyer can save 25 percent by going for a Dell XPS One instead of a low-end iMac and that the Mac Pro is more than double the cost of a high-end HP desktop.
Microsoft says consumers are paying an Apple tax when they buy a Mac. Click chart for larger version.
(Credit: Microsoft)I made the argument when Microsoft first brought up the concept that, if it is a tax, it is a tax that a growing number of buyers seem willing to pay.
Brooks said on Monday, though, that he expects the weakening economy will limit the number of people willing to pay more for a computer.
"More and more people are going to be scratching their head and say is that a tax I am really willing to pay," he said.
He noted that the tax isn't just about the higher sticker price, but also about the lack of choice that Mac users have. Certainly there are fewer hardware options and the Mac software aisles remain far narrower as well. Brooks also tried to position the Mac as less open, pointing to the iTunes App Store as an example of Apple forcing a "walled garden" on users. Were he to be comparing the iPhone and Windows Mobile, he might arguably have a point, but last I checked developers are free to write whatever program they want for the Mac.
Although I don't buy the idea that Mac users don't know there are cheaper PC options, I think the sorry state of the economy will pose challenges for all PC makers, including Apple. Consumers are clearly going to have to weigh any computer purchase against more basic needs, the prospect of not having a job, etc.
That said, it is unclear who will be hurt more by the economy. Apple is in many ways akin to BMW or another automaker that plays only at the high end of the market. I expect Apple will have a tough time keeping up with recent growth trends. But, as the car market shows, the Fords, GMs, and Hyundais of the world are also taking a huge hit.
I don't want to take this auto analogy too far, either. I don't see Microsoft running to Capitol Hill for a bailout anytime soon. Microsoft makes huge margins on its products. And while I hear layoffs may indeed be in the works, the company doesn't face anywhere near the structural issues of the auto industry (the Google threat notwithstanding).
Brooks would not specifically comment on whether Microsoft has trimmed its PC outlook for 2009, but did say that clearly the whole global economy is far weaker than it was in October, when Microsoft issued its last forecast.
"It continues to be a tough economic time for everybody," Brooks said. "We continue to see that our customers are suffering out there.
During her years at CNET News, Ina Fried has changed beats several times, changed genders once, and covered both of the Pirates of Silicon Valley. These days, most of her attention is focused on Microsoft. E-mail Ina.
Why even PAY the tax when you can go LINUX FOR FREE and not have to worry about anything either. So you are paying a tax for that pretty case and that fancy gui.
Completely agree with the Linux statement. I went from running XP with nightly checks by my malware checker, running my antivirus scan once a month and having it up and running constantly to only checking which files I'm going to send to Windows users because I'm a good citizen of the interwebs. I also have a much safer way to acquire software and a much cheaper way to fix any problems with my PC. I'm also free to do whatever the hell I want with my OS because once it's downloaded it's actually mine. Microsoft wants to bring up the Apple tax, I'd like to bring up the MS tax, paying roughly $100 per computer for a license to run an OS that comes with almost nothing I would need it to have. I paid the money for the CD I burned my copy of Ubuntu on. I'll even raise the price of that one CD to $7 since I had to buy the group in order to get that one. When I installed Ubuntu I had OpenOffice.org, Firefox, Rhythmbox and a host of other software making my initial download work for any basic computer users needs straight off the download, no need to purchase any extra software to get done what you need done. With that $100 I just saved, I could double my RAM, purchase better equipment than I otherwise would be able to and be better off doing so. I also have more options to change the look to my preferences and can even copy MS or Mac if I feel like it. That's just one distros advantages over MS straight from the box. Oh, I forgot to mention, you don't even have to buy the CD to burn yourself as they'll send you a LiveCD made to order completely free of charge. Total cost of ownership for Ubuntu-$0, total cost of MS-$100+MS Office+Adobe Photoshop+more+more+more.
sit on their ***** and Copy {Actually make a mockery out of copying}
I can't believe after 6 years of copying they still coundn't get there OS right
Ms is seriously the Most Incompetent Organization on the planet
You mean a tabbed toolbar? Yeah, real innovative! LOL
Let me refresh your memory on the definition of innovation (noun ):
1. something new or different introduced: numerous innovations in the high-school curriculum.
2. the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods.
Innovate(verb):
1. to introduce something new; make changes in anything established.
from dictionary.com
A different way of interacting with an Office suite is by definition of innovative, how much is a matter of opinion.
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by gggg sssss January 5, 2009 5:15 PM PST
@susan_bennett I see your problem You baught office 2008. non existant. just like Mac quality
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You may like PCs as your preferred tool, but statements asserting that Mac quality is non-existent shows you haven't spent much time, if any, using a Mac. The only Mac users I know that switched to PCs did so kicking and screaming under edict from their ignorant IT guys who were too lazy to maintain a mixed platform network. I'm sure they exist, but people who switched from PC to Macs and regret it are pretty hard to find.
This is not value, regardless of how cheap MS needs to blow their crap out at.
but just buy online and out of state to avoid the tax man.
desktop tower is always cheaper than all in ones or tiny desktops that use laptop components
then add in the MacTax, you can save 50% buying a desktop tower instead of an iMac
I can build one for you and guarantee it is reliable for 50% of iMac price or about 60% of usual all in one price
That's right. Not going to happen, is it. In that month I will have produced thousands upon thousands of dollars in customer work while you're still trying to get something to print in color on 12x18 sheets (let alone properly edit an Illustrator file from a customer with spot color separations or create a press-ready PDF).
But hey, you can change the way the interface looks. Bonus!
There's a reason why Macs have the highest Customer satisfaction rate in the industry {90+%}
They don't use Windows !
and BTW !!!
MS requires you have anti-virus,Firewall and Spyware scanner
wat about the price of that ???
Limited choices in software and hardware has always been a dealbreaker for me (Since the Apple ][ vs. IBM PC days, when IBM was the villian and not Microsoft, but I degress.) I am willing to tackle some of the more technical problems of owning a PC if it allows me to have three monitors, my choice of sound hardware and bleeding edge graphics.
Other people only want to check e-mail and use web applications. So be it. How many people own BMWs and rarely do more than commute to work? Buy a Honda and take your kids to Disneyland.
Apple panders to the elitist snobs of the world, Microsoft is trying to put a PC on EVERY desktop, not just the rich. If those numbers make them a target, oh well. They're not going to stop helping create cheap PC's for EVERYONE just because some hackers find an exploit (which is quickly patched.)
Methinks Microsoft doth protest too much ...
It seems you are correct by the way, but their little comparison leaves out the idea that maybe I am willing to pay the 100 bucks to use OSX and the included software.
Bad economy or nor, when it comes time to replace my Mac, hopefully this summer, I will not be purchasing a system running Windows. I don't need the aggravation that comes with it.
Sign me: a very satisfied switcher.
Seriously...
I ran XP at the time I switched and I bought a reconditioned IBM a bit later with XP Pro on it. XP runs fine as long as you are the type that runs a few selected applications and do not install and uninstall software on a regular basis like I do. The biggest hassle was always having to put a lot of time into keeping the system secure. The final straw came one night when I came in to do a 10 minute task on my system before heading off to bed. After several hours of fixing problems I finally got to bed at 0100 hours. The next evening I ordered my Mac and have not regretted it.
And the system with XP Pro on it now runs BSD and Linux with the XP install being formatted away. To be fair, I know people who are happy with Windows, but they don't do the kind of stuff I do. But then I get the calls when they do have trouble, which is a lot more often than I do, and several of them come over to do their video projects on my Mac. In any event, my time is worth something to me and I have had to spend only a small fraction of the time on my Mac and the BSD machine to keep them running and secure.
You really do get what you pay for. For $400 you get a $400 computer and an operating system that requires you to spend a lot more money if you want to do any serious work with that computer. When I made the switch I did some serious number crunching. By comparing similarly equipped high end systems with the software I needed to do the job the Mac actually came out a bit cheaper. I know I will get flamed for that statement, but it is the simple truth in my case. The so called premium only takes the computer and the OS into account. It does not include a number of other tangible and intangible needs. I have actually saved money over the life of this Mac. But to each their own...
Kudos for looking around. But just like you said for what you need the Mac works, for what i need.. the mac really doesn't make sense as i can get it for way cheaper and just as reliable.
But yeah, Apple Tax? What in the world is M$ thinking? Why not just say "Windows Vista! Because not everyone can afford OS X". Or "Windows Vista, the cheaper alternative to computing". Or "Windows Vista, the OS you can actually play a computer game on".... But Apple Tax, seriously.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117143
That totals too $1460 for just the processors.
It will be funny if apple counters them by pointing out the cost of antivirus, how windows costs $300 while Leopard costs $129, or how their office suite is $79 and microsofts office is again $300.
There is a downside to every OS and there are upsides. the Operating system one chooses to use should be about choice and personal preference. If you can't see the downside to either MS, OSX, or linux along with the upsides, you have no business saying anything about them.
To the author... typo.. wrote "me" should be "be"
"And while I hear layoffs may indeed me in the works"
As for stable OS... XP and Vista are very stable. You start doing stupid stuff, installing a bunch of crapware junk, hitting porn sites, then you deserve the unstable OS. But the only crash my Vista box has encountered has been due to faulty Nvidia drivers. That's it.
I have an XP box that I use to run a private shoutcast server and that thing runs 24x7 and I reboot it about once every 2 or 3 months to apply updates/patches.
I have only had one crash on my vista box, IRQL_Not_Less_or_Equal... turns out to be a corrupt page file. No worries. Personally windows is my preferred OS, and i like Vista over my XP machines. But the Mac i have at work is just fine. Even if it does crash more than what my bosses would like to admit.
No one is putting a gun to the consumer's head and making them buy a Windows PC or a Mac. People can choose what to buy and use. It just so happens that I prefer Macs, but I use Windows every day as well. There are pros and cons to each OS. If I have to pay a "tax" to use the computer/OS of my choice, then that's really my problem, isn't it? Why should Microsoft care about that? I have my copies of MS Office and XP that they've made money from me on, after all..
It's always amusing to see the fanboys from each camp just get rabid whenever topics like this come up..
Re: the "Vista Capable" fiasco - thelemurking needs to do some research. It was a total communication breakdown between the Vista development team and Intel over the driver support that the GPU would need to run VIsta. MS kept changing the spec and expected Intel to hold to their word that it would work, until Intel told them differently. There was a nice write-up on this here at CNET last month.
if there n e company that looks down on it's competitors it's Apple
but 1 thing is funny here...
notice how Dell and Hp have nothing to say.... but Ms Has
it's because MS mints money of Dell and HP for each Pc sold
while Dell/Hp have low margins
it's no wonder that Apple makes 20 times more profit on the sale of a Mac
the prices of the Windows are ridiculous
they should provide it free of cost for the crap it is !
That said the difference isn't as much as it used to be. 200 give or take for the example I have in mind.
On another note, I don't buy the stability thing. In 2006, I went to a forensic camp where they were using Macs.At the time, JPEG images were having compatibility issues with Apples' webpage maker thingy! A few weeks ago, I walked into Dick Smith Electronics. Sitting there was a brand-new, top-of-the-rnage MacBook Pro. The first time I used this $35,000(Aus) machine (which is an insane amount of money (hmm, an Audi A3 or a computer?)), I waved the mouse over the icons down the bottom, and they totally disappeared without a trace. I left, $35,000 better off.
http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/servicecfg.htm
That's a good place to start to find out what to disable. Also uninstall all that preloaded 3rd party junk that isn't necessary. You will have a better experience with Vista after that.
But you could, and it would knock the doors off any hobbled windoze tablet.
Apple tax? Windows is really just, ... well... taxing.
Please elaborate because that's just silly.
***?!?
No down time
I have no adware, no spyware, no virus
the computer is fast
no reformats since the install of XP pro a couple of years back
Time spent since 2004 in maintenance, upkeep, and repairs on my dual G5 Mac: ~30 minutes preparation, and ten minutes' unanticipated downtime total over 5 years of ownership.
Time spent since January 2008 to maintain my missus' XP laptop: 3 hours preparation, and 6 hours (and counting) of downtime over one year (two complete re-installs from image, three bouts of malware removal due to infected websites, twice-monthly runs of CCleaner and JKDefrag to keep the registry from bloating, and one roll-back due to a Windows Update patch that was bad).
Time spent since 2003 on my FreeBSD file server: 3 hours preparation, and 10 minutes' downtime total over six years (aggregate of all kernel-patch-caused reboots, which I did at my leisure).
Nope - not silly... just reflective of typical usage patterns.
Who really needs that BS?
All your downtime numbers demonstrate is that you are more adept / aware of your system than others that use it. I would expect the personal machine of any sysadmin will have similar statistics.
To have a unbiased and realistic comparison, we would need to have end users who are not technogeeks to use both systems in the same role for the same period of time. That, unfortunately, is not likely to be a comparison that would be done, but it would at least be a fair one.
I could comment that of my particular group's test machines, the Lenovo has had no downtime since we powered it up last year except for OS updates. The HP had a HDD failure and required a 30 minute reimage. A Dell had a failed system board and was down for 30 minutes. The MacBookPro was down for nearly six weeks due to a system board failure, hard drive failure, and finally a corrupted OS (thank you iTunes). Now if we do the very same comparison that you did, that would indicate that the Apple product had the highest downtime of them all- which is correct, but that could also just be that the machine he have in the test lab is a lemon. Such variables aren't in your comparison and do need to be included to be fair.
During all that time, my Toshiba laptop that I use personally had no downtime. Does that mean that Toshiba is superior to Apple? Nope, it's just that I keep the system maintenance up to date on the Toshiba as it's my daily machine.
It's a good example that illustrates clearly that your results may vary from those that others have experienced.
I will admit that the FreeBSD box required a bit more work (no GUI, I wanted Samba on it, etc). ;)
The real funny part is the Vista (x64 Business) laptop I use at work. The preparation for it was actually longer than I would spend for a Linux machine: combing through the registry making tweaks, disabling all the fluff and crap that slowed the machine down big-time (why the frig does a business machine need Aero, anyway?), adding RAM (it has 4GB now - which makes it about as responsive now as the same machine had with XP and only 2GB of RAM)... basically a ton of work just to trim the little bastard down so that I could use it.
(We had a user in HR try one out - she gave it back in disgust after a week, even after we tweaked it down w/ assistance from MSFT itself).
WRT to: "The MacBookPro was down for nearly six weeks due to a system board failure, hard drive failure, and finally a corrupted OS (thank you iTunes)."
So do tell - how does iTunes blow up a mainboard? ;)
In all seriousness - the Mac has held up this long w/o problems, but I'm not the only one... it's actually typical.
How does running, say, AdAware spyware remover, CCleaner for tidying things up and Avast Virus Scan count as downtime since they actually run in the background? Just askin'.
Also three reinstalls in a year isn't exactly usual.
I am seriously considering buying my first Mac for my next laptop... I have had Nightmare experiences with Vista and I don't think that Win7 will be ready. Honestly I would buy an XP laptop but microsoft has given me no other option other than the Mac.
you can get 8 cores for about $1250 from me (2x Shanghai)
8 threads can be cheaper
1 Ci7, 4 core, 8 thread
build you one with it for 1k
not all pros need 8 cores
if most of the computing happens on the GPU, you don't need a 4 core Xeon. I'd recommend the Athlon X2 7750.
So - where do you steal your parts then?
(hint: http://pricewatch.com shows wholesale numbers for parts and systems... good luck beating their numbers).
You realize that they are completely different chips. He offered to build you one with an AMD shangai proccessors while the macpro uses Intel Xeon (harpertown). I personally refuse to use amd processors any more because a couple of years ago, I had one that almost caught on fire. (the bottom plastic of the laptop melted onto the desk). I am sure it was a fluke but I have lost trust in their product.
You could build this exact PC for 1k if you went with a mid level graphics instead of top of the line. Which uses an i7 proc. 4 cores plus HT.
I Newegg snipe for parts, might take a month or two longer, but just wait for prices to drop
the Tom's hardware i7 rig is under 1k if you drop the high end graphics card
bring me your optical and hard drive and I'll install them for you in your new rig
AMD and Intel chips have overheated, melted, and destroy themselves in front of me
It happens, sorry that your AMD chip overheated
Shanghais are pretty nice processor chips, not as fast as Xeons, but more power efficient and cheaper
As a developer, there's certainly a pretty big Apple tax to support the Apple market. It's very time consuming, you serve at Apple's convenience, and Apple users expect to pay only the same as Windows.
To those wondering why their old machines and old software are not so much slower than new software and new machines, keep in mind that both Apple and Microsoft have chosen to expend much of your performance on gratuitous aesthetics, especially transparency, as well as other behind the scenes things that make software more reliable or faster to write. The general assumption is that while computers are getting faster, users aren't.
I use Linux Mint currently for everything, but I do have to use XP to VPN into my job.
I use Linux because it's stable and I can do everything that M$ does, but faster and secure.
Mac's are expensive, but it's a great OS. One day when i have enough money I will get me a Mac.
Sorry M$
Some reactions about the other comments:
Linux/Ubuntu etc.: certainly a viable option if you are technically inclined, remember that the majority of consumers want a platform that is well supported. You can argue what you like, but the last time I was at a computer shop, you don't normally see Linux software on the shelf, or bundled drivers for peripherals. Linux is great, but not for the mainstream majority...
Vista and tuning it to run better: definitely great tips for us techie types, but once again, think of the end-user experience, should a typical consumer need to learn how to reduce startup processes to make the OS work smoother? I think not...
I switched around 2.5 yrs ago and still have my Windows PC sitting beside me, albeit turned off since about 9 months ago. I won't get into all the reasons, but I'm happy using my Macbook for all my work and personal needs, I like the fact that it's just easier and more intuitive...
If you love Linux enough, you'd get yourself Debian and modify it to your liking
I wasn't exactly technically inclined when I installed Ubuntu onto my machine. I ran the disk while XP was up and the wubi installer came up. I went through the wizard and restarted my computer when it said to. I didn't even bother with the partitioning since it did it automatically. When I restarted, I had the option to use Ubuntu or XP and all I had to do is press up or down to scroll through the options. It came up, it ran and I explored the software.
As for why you don't find Linux software on the shelf, what kind of software are you trying to buy? All the stuff I've found I would ever need is free and listed in the repositories available through Synaptic on Ubuntu. There's a huge amount of stuff there. In fact, there's more software for Linux than there is for Windows and pretty much all of it is free. The bundled drivers you need for Windows aren't really necessary for Linux. In Ubuntu, everything worked right away when I installed it. Any proprietary drivers necessary were installed automatically on first update.
The mainstream majority has been using Windows for so long they think that's how the world has to be. With a push and someone to force them to take just a little bit of time to play around with the system, the mainstream majority would be more than happy in a Linux world. They'd be happy, but they'd also be free.
That's right. Not going to happen, is it. In that month I will have produced thousands upon thousands of dollars in customer work on my Mac while you're still trying to get something to print in color on 12x18 sheets (let alone properly edit an Illustrator file from a customer with spot color separations or create a press-ready PDF).
But hey, you can change the way the interface looks. Bonus!
by word of mouth lots of people have heard of Linux now without using Jerry Seinfeld or a screaming Steve B. Imagine if someone did advertise it.......Woooow!
It's very easy to use now. My 6 year old son uses it, my wife knows nothing about a computer uses Linux.
MS shouldn't be so, so, so trying to put any other OS out of commission. We should all have a choice of OS. Like the wide choice of beer!!
Shame on MS !!
And while you use M$, ironically, you are defending Apples high price and yearly (or 1.5 yearly) $100-150 price for what are basically updates to OSX !
Yet, professionally, Vista 64 can run many programs that the new OSX simply cannot.
So paying for "VALUE" ... WHAT FRICKEN VALUE IF IT DOES LESS?!!?!?!?
You guys claim, it doesnt have viruses, yet are much less than 10% of the market share. You guys are simply paying for obscurity, with something that does great by itself. So do trolls!
Such as ...?
Please, list some.
solitaire for one, also Trojan-Downloader.JS.Small.fi, Trojan-PSW.Win32.OnLineGames.sxa, Backdoor.Win32.Small.x...
The hardware comparisons are apples and oranges to put it nicely, and they ignore the stability and security that all windows versions lack. Not too mention, the quality software that ships with a Mac, compared to the trialware that ships with HP, Dell, etc.
MS is simply a clueless and incompetent organization.
The windows stability argument is complete BS. Mac or PC, if either crashes it is because something has caused it---99% a device driver (1% a debugging tool) --- or a soft-error in RAM.
Still waiting for HP or Dell to offer a competitive 8-core though.
doesn't know wat they r talking about for sure
or they r just the typical Apple haters/Ms fanboys
lets just say that saying IMovie > Windows Movie maker is a understatement.
but Windows does have a few decent free Video editors which r comparable to Imovie
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by nicmart
January 5, 2009 1:49 PM PST
- The use of the word "tax" is noxious. A tax is money taken involuntarily by government.
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by jabberwolf
January 5, 2009 4:21 PM PST
- What "slight" premium?
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by seven7dust
January 5, 2009 4:45 PM PST
- Lol!
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by MSSlayer
January 6, 2009 1:55 PM PST
- jabber,
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Showing 1 of 4 pages (220 Comments)I don't mind paying a slight premium for the Mac OS. The problem is that Apple refuses to make competitive products for the sub-$1000 segment of the market -- which is to say for most buyers. It recognizes and offers other products, including iPods, to budget shoppers, but it won't offer computers to those shoppers. Or at least not ones that are remotely competitive. It's a big mistake and it prevents Apple from expanding market share greatly.
They also charge you more ( over 4-5 years) for having an up-to-date OS.
And a premium suggests, you get a better product.
Not once, has there been a valid argument that suggests Apple is any better at doing any process for the same price!!!
1-Argument - virus debunked because of obvious isolation ( take a statistics class for those who cant think it through)
2-Argument - better security debunked as OSX is the first to be hacked in competions where there is reward money for doing so.
3- Crashes? Kernel panic attacks have always plagues OSX when used heavily.
So what, what's left? I havent seen 1 dam thing !!
aleast they do major updates to the Os every few years {and add features}
unlike you know who !
The meaning of Ms should be changed to Zero innovation
You are way off. Look into the details of the OSX hack contest. How many in the wild exploits over 8 or 9 years? 3 or 4? But none did widespread damage.
OSX doesn't get viruses because of a superior architecture, not market share. Take a computer science class for people like you who can't think it through.