E-mail, photo programs stripped from Windows 7
Microsoft has decided that Windows 7 won't include built-in programs for e-mail, photo editing, and movie making, as was done with Windows Vista, CNET News.com has learned.
The software maker included Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Mail, and Windows Movie Maker as part of Vista, but later chose to offer separate downloadable Windows Live programs that essentially replaced those components with versions that could connect to online services from Microsoft and others.
Microsoft told CNET News late Monday that it has decided to remove those features entirely from Windows 7 and instead offer only the service-connected Windows Live versions as optional free downloads. Earlier on Monday, Microsoft had declined to say how it was handling things.
In a follow-up interview on Monday, Windows Live general manager Brian Hall said Microsoft made the decision to remove the tools from Windows for several reasons, including a desire to issue new operating system releases more quickly than it has in the past. The move also removes the confusion of offering and supporting two different programs that perform essentially similar functions.
"It makes it much cleaner," Hall said.
Lastly, he said, making the Windows Live tools completely separate from the operating system paves the way for Microsoft to work selectively with specific partners.
"We can do things with specific partners to enable really great experiences that might be hard in Windows," Hall said.
Antitrust rules make it hard for Microsoft to tie operating system features to specific services.
Microsoft last week rolled out the latest "Wave 3" releases of its Windows Live programs, adding Windows Live Movie Maker to the mix of programs, which includes Windows Live Photo Gallery and Windows Live Mail as well as blogging tool Windows Live Writer and instant messaging program Windows Live Messenger. While Windows XP and earlier releases had an instant messaging program built in, Microsoft took out that feature in Windows Vista.
Hall said it was too soon to say if the "Wave 4" release would precede Windows 7 or be coincident to it. Microsoft has said it will have Windows 7 on the market by January 2010, while CEO Steve Ballmer has said he is pushing for a release next year.
"We'll do Wave 3 and then we'll figure it out," Hall said.
It remains to be seen just how Microsoft will distribute the Windows Live programs in conjunction with Windows 7-based PCs. Presumably the company could strike deals with computer makers or retailers to include the software, or links to download it.
During her years at CNET News, Ina Fried has changed beats several times, changed genders once, and covered both of the Pirates of Silicon Valley. These days, most of her attention is focused on Microsoft. E-mail Ina. 
For most people, a PC is just an 'appliance' that we use to surf the internet, get our email, watch movies, and make documents of various types. I think that's one of the problems with Vista; it takes way too long to get up and running out of the box.
I see this as a great opportunity for other OS vendors. Mac, Linux - Are you listening?
I just really use Gmail. Even at work we just use Gmail now. Most people just use the web and email, but they use web mail. Most people don?t use mail clients anymore. If they do they end up installing Thunderbird or Outlook anyway.
Also, on Vista I have the Vista photo viewer, Picasa, the Office picture viewer, GIMP, Photoshop, MS Paint, Paint.NET. It's just silly. I have something for video and something else for audio and so on. I use Pidgin for messaging so I don't have to install AIM, Yahoo, Windows Messenger, MySpace IM, and an IRC client. So why install a messenger by default? Especially since the one service I don't use is Hotmail and Windows messenger. What I'm saying is everyone just ends up installing their own toaster anyway.
Basically MS has too many redundant apps. Just for mail we have Hotmail, Windows Live Mail, Windows Mail, Outlook Express, and Outlook. I'm even fairly certain I missed some. So, I don't really see it as a toaster that can't make toast. I see it more like a web browser that has three toasters installed and I don't eat toast.
You heard it here! Praise for a Microsoft move.
You may never hear it again!
This does two things.
A) It makes the OS lighter.
B) It pushes their apps online - to compete with Google and others way ahead of them.
I've always liked in Linux how you could choose which GUI, which basic apps, etc, that you wanted during the install itself. Sure, you had to be a Linux guru to actually know what all those options meant beyond just names, but it was there and you didn't install stuff you didn't want. That was the point. You could make it streamlined.
A) It makes the OS lighter.
B) It pushes their apps online - to compete with Google and others way ahead of them."
A: Lighter? Like, fewer binaries on the disk? Now that machines are just catching up with Vista, I hardly think this is the way to go about making the OS less intrusive and resource-intensive.
B: Pushes their apps online to compete with Google, hunh? Then they'll have to compete on quality. Let's see how that shakes out.
Personally, I have issues with an OS that throws up six flags/balloons/messages/updates within a minute after boot - none of which has any critical focus. That's called besieging the user - and I think people are tired of it.
I wonder how much smaller Win7 will be over Vista and XP as a result. Hmm.
Um, no it just means that you'll go after them later and they'll be be big and they'll add to the overall space taken up on your hard drive. This is the solution to bloatware concerns? Put it out there in smaller chunks so that people think the original footprint of the OS is smaller?
How about going through your code and throwing out all the sludge?
Then the only reason a system is bloated is because the end user decided to do that to themselves. The OEM can't force people to download and install applications. That's up to the end users.
Thiink of it this way- if there was a way to prevent iTunes from autoinstalling itself on every machine on the planet simply because you wanted to view a movie trailer, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you rather have the choice of what gets installed on your system?
@ the rest of ye: You folks do know the diff between application and kernel memory, right? Even Windows has some semblance of that separation - so if the OS is bloated but you're not running your email, movie-maker, and photo preview programs, the problem isn't going to be in those apps, you know?
@Lerianis: You're obviously not a programmer - please stop embarrassing yourself. Yes, MSFT left code in there for compatibility, but the "good reason" is often that removing or refining the bloat would likely break something - an unavoidable consequence of having a multi-million-line codebase with a tangle of dependencies based on outdated and old architecture/design/concepts...
The photo preview thingy? Bah - it's way behind the curve anyway - IrfanView can stomp it flat any day of the week. The Movie Maker thingy? Dunno ab't that one - I do all of mine on a Mac. ;)
I suspect it'll take more than just ripping out a few ancillary programs, though... Vista's problems lie in the core, not on the periphery.
@ Vegaman Dan:
"I'd love to see OSX without iTunes, iChat, Quicktime, etc."
It's simple to do: Go to Finder -> Applications, and drag each one you want gone to that really big trash can on the dock. That's it. No registry hacking, no "uninstall", nothing.
"I wonder how much smaller Win7 will be over Vista and XP as a result."
Heh - it won't do much to reduce that massive RAM footprint which Vista currently occupies.
"Removing these built in apps that I'm not sure are used that much..."
Err, you're saying that nobody uses email? Really?
'It's simple to do: Go to Finder -> Applications, and drag each one you want gone to that really big trash can on the dock. That's it. No registry hacking, no "uninstall", nothing. "
Sure, techs can do that, but why is it automatically installed in the first place? That's the entire point of the article. If you don't use it, you shouldn't have had to install it in the first place. Customers shouldn't have to spend time undoing all that unnecessary bloat. This is true of OS X and Windows. Simply no reason for it.
"Heh - it won't do much to reduce that massive RAM footprint which Vista currently occupies."
Well, since you don't have Win7, it would be hard for you to comment and you are only making stuff up. That's fine- that's your opinon. If you want to make stuff up, that is totally up to you. Some people also call that spreading FUD. I suppose it depends on how you want people to perceive your comments.
"Err, you're saying that nobody uses email? Really? "
Hmm, reading back through my comments, at no time did I say that. Even in the quoted text, I cannot find this claim that you have made on my behalf. I haven't run across anyone who uses the default email client in a basic install of Vista. People use Outlook, Gmail, Yahoo, AOL (I'm sure even you have heard of these companies. If not, try Google to search for them). etc. But just because I haven't run across anyone in the *thousands* of machines I have serviced in the last ten years doesn't mean that there aren't people who do use it. I just can base my comments on my own experience.
Google is the most popular browser. Does this mean it should be automatically installed on all systems regardless of your own personal choice?
Acrobat Reader is the most popular PDF reader. Again, should it be automatically installed on every system you own without your permission or knowledge?
iTunes is indeed the most common, but not necessarily 'popular' choice in music management. Shoudl it be autoinstalled on every machine on the planet- even those machines owned by peopel who don't even have an iPod?
No sir, I would prefer to have open choice in the situation. I don't care for having those decisions made for me without my knowledge or choice.
1) You don't have to be a "tech" to drag and drop icons. That was the whole point of a GUI way back in the day, you know?
2) I don't have to have Windows 7 to know what kind of RAM footprint Vista takes up. Unless you're prepared to state that the majority of Vista's 500MB+ constant RAM appetite is sucked down by these three programs, It's drop-easy to figure out that these ancillary apps aren't going to do much to relieve the memory pressure. Seriously - you claim to know how an OS works - stop being silly.
3) You did say, and I quote: "Removing these built in apps that I'm not sure are used that much..." That includes the email client (no, really - read the article.)
By the way:
* "Google" is not a browser (Chrome is, but it's not the most popular by far...).
* "iTunes is indeed the most common, but not necessarily 'popular' choice in music management." The same can be said of Internet Explorer and web browsing. That said, iTunes is the Mac equivalent of Windows Media Player - it manages music that you may have on the machine, even if you don't own an iPod. For some odd reason, I suspect that Windows 7 will still have Windows Media Player installed (maybe you can talk to your employers and see about them removing that, hey?).
/P
Dude, you're being obtuse and argumentative. What are you, like, 12? You said, and I quote: "Err, you're saying that nobody uses email? Really?" Key word you used was "Nobody"....here's the original post: "Removing these built in apps that I'm not sure are used that much..." Key word being Nobody...oooops! Nope...that wasn't used at all. Hmmmm...
Err perhaps you should quit putting words into peoples mouths? Really!
Also, "Nobody" is also a generic slang term that can include none but a remote few.
Hint: Pedancy only works to a degree... then you just look silly.
The LACK of a registry in OSX is often its stupidity.
The Registry is sheer madness - basically, Windows relies on one easily-corruptible file (and two dynamic rotating copies of it) to store information about everything, which in turn the OS itself needs in order to operate. The Registry itself is why Windows is so easy to compromise - if I can write to one part of it as a process, I can write to ANY part of it (this is why even the slightest malware can take down the whole box). I can hide malware in there entirely.
Out of all of 'em, I prefer UNIX and /etc (and /usr/local/etc) - store all your configs in there. Separately. One blows up, and the OS still runs just fine. Normal users and processes can't write to anything in /etc. The worst a user can do (minus root privs) is blow up their home directory, while the OS stays unaffected... this is why Linux and OSX malware --combined-- can be counted on one hand --with fingers to spare-- in their entire combined histories (with pretty much the whole count being Linux').
Its like the article says most people, including yourself, aren't using these programs anyway.
As to unbundling IE..... yeah, that's actually a good idea. However, a lot of the Explorer functionality comes from..... IE being bundled with the system and extending Explorer.
Regular people are just going to love this! Finally Windows will be so easy to use you won't even have to use it, because what would you use if for???
"How do I organize my photos?" -- "You don't!!!"
"How do I make a movie?" -- "You could download and install something, or just forget about movies!!!"
"How do I read my email?" -- "Toss this thing out and use your iPhone!!!"
"Why should I buy this?" -- "You shouldn't!!!!"
Everything becomes cheaper and easier!
Apple could benefit from this model.
Ooh I have a great Idea: take everything out so that consumers can have a streamline experience with Windows 7 via the command prompt and call it WinDOS 7 =)
I do not want the OS to do anything other than help manage my data, run the computer, and provide enough code to software developers to allow them to create software that will not crash the OS. I will buy all the software I need to do what I do. The only piece of MS software I run is MS Office 2003 Professional because, well, you almost have to use MS Office in the business world. But my personal credo is "avoid MS software at all costs". I use freeware calculators and software listed below.
Basically, the computer out of the box is nothing more than a car with an engine. Think of software as the transmission and steering wheel. Personally, I have to install over $3,000 worth of registered software to do what I do...Adobe CS3, Thumbs Plus, Pro Show Gold, MS Office 2003 Professional, 2xExplorer, Sync Back Express, WinDates, Ahead Nero v8, all of which I paid for and registered (some such as 2xExplorer and sync Back Express are freeware).
Craig Knapp
craig.knapp1@us.army.mil
@Dan: I'm sure the recommendations would all be pointed directly at URLs owned by Microsoft, no? ;)
I hope that it won't kill other web apps by MS replacing all of them using this strategy. It is just another way to monopolize the market and it will degrade innovation. In long term, the IT industry and users will suffer at the end.
And if you get an OEM computer (HP, Dell, something from bestbuy) THEY chose what browser is default. And latley BestBuy has been pushing AOL again for some reason.
useless!
These newer ones (windows mail and windows live mail) HANG, won't show all earlier months this year of my annual inbox, FIND is totally broken, and Microsoft apparently does not care. If the arrogant bastards can't just simply give us back a working OE, perhaps their arrogance can let them follow DEC into the crash and burn cemetary. Only in this case I'll clap rather than cry.
For those looking to remove and tailor Vista or XP builtin cruft ahead of time, DO LOOK AT VLITE and NLITE. Lets you create a pre tailored disc for use in your company that behaves more to your liking than the raw arrogance from MS.
Not having to have apps that won't be used already preloaded can only help things out.
I do not want the OS to do anything other than help manage my data, run the computer, and provide enough code to software developers to allow them to create software that will not crash the OS. I will buy all the software I need to do what I do. The only piece of MS software I run is MS Office 2003 Professional because, well, you almost have to use MS Office in the business world. But my personal credo is "avoid MS software at all costs". I use freeware calculators and software listed below.
Basically, the computer out of the box is nothing more than a car with an engine. Think of software as the transmission and steering wheel. Personally, I have to install over $3,000 worth of registered software to do what I do...Adobe CS3, Thumbs Plus, Pro Show Gold, MS Office 2003 Professional, 2xExplorer, Sync Back Express, WinDates, Ahead Nero v8, all of which I paid for and registered (some such as 2xExplorer and sync Back Express are freeware).
Craig Knapp
craig.knapp1@us.army.mil
Windows once let you pick what apps you wanted during the OS install... whatever happened to that?
@Dan: that's because corps usually flush the hard drive (or buy PC with empty hard drives) and park their own system image on the things.
How is it that all these 'Doze "experts" are completely and utterly unaware of the differences in architecture between the 25 year old hack ' Doze has become vs MacOS?
Hate to bring you guys kicking and screaming into the 20th century, but one BIG reason adding ANYTHING to 'Doze craps up the works lies in that 1980's concept of maintaining a monolithic Registry.
Yes... adding mail (and any other program) to 'Doze adds crap to that archaic OS by adding thousands of bits of data into the Registry, but adding mail to OSX uses no more resources (assuming you don't use it) than hard drive space.
Enjoy paying through the nose for things you once had for free, because in the end, all MS is doing is finding a way to sell subscription based software to the clueless masses.
it's funny you mention the reegistry, i'm no mac fan, but this is a comment on another bonehead move microsoft made.
outlook express used a form of a database to store emails and contacts. a lot of programs ms is trying to deliver now, tries to use a form of sql to store data, dtaa protectiion manager for one.
ok, back to windows mail and wlm. they store emails as separate files. this makes accessing them slower and marking all read a lot slower that it was in outlook express.
now the registry part. now, instead of autocomplete working from the address book when addressing an email. microsoft in their infinite wisdom, stores a whole 29 addresses autocomplete can draw from and yes, stores them in the register. how braindead is that? so, if i start typing al and press enter, it may fill al@somedomain.com but i may have wanted al@someotherdaomain.com. but i can't tell, because it's not one of the last 29 addresses i used. then to top it off, they're stroed in hex in the registry.
that's enough for now.
Anything to help reduce the clutter in the registry is a good thing- why are you agaisnt it?
Adding apps in OS X doesn't add anything to a registry as OS X uses an entirely different file system and kernel structure. Comparing the two is irrelevant at best. But if you want to- okay. Go right ahead.
Anything to help reduce the clutter in the registry is a good thing- why are you agaisnt it?
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I knew there was something in your comments that was bothering me. I totally agree with the main theme of your posts regarding this - removing "cruft" from the OS and allowing the user to decide what is installed is a GOOD thing. I have Ubuntu at home on another partition from winblows ex-pee (lucky enough to have a Mac at work), I know what you mean. But something was still bugging me and I couldn't put my finger on it. Then you did it for me.
Reducing clutter in the registry misses the point. The registry itself should be abolished, taken behind the woodshed, shot, clubbed unrecognizable, dragged through the streets of town and buried in a very deep unmarked hole. It's entire family should be banished from the planet. Getting it yet? Reducing evil is well and good, but abolishing evil is a much better answer. Why does M$ persist in this idiotic registry idea anyway?
I do not want the OS to do anything other than help manage my data, run the computer, and provide enough code to software developers to allow them to create software that will not crash the OS. I will buy all the software I need to do what I do. The only piece of MS software I run is MS Office 2003 Professional because, well, you almost have to use MS Office in the business world. But my personal credo is "avoid MS software at all costs". I use freeware calculators and software listed below.
Basically, the computer out of the box is nothing more than a car with an engine. Think of software as the transmission and steering wheel. Personally, I have to install over $3,000 worth of registered software to do what I do...Adobe CS3, Thumbs Plus, Pro Show Gold, MS Office 2003 Professional, 2xExplorer, Sync Back Express, WinDates, Ahead Nero v8, all of which I paid for and registered (some such as 2xExplorer and sync Back Express are freeware).
Craig Knapp
craig.knapp1@us.army.mil
it'll happen.
it's funny you mention the registry, i'm no mac fan, but this is a comment on another bonehead move microsoft made.
outlook express used a form of a database to store emails and contacts. a lot of programs ms is trying to deliver now, tries to use a form of sql to store data, data protection manager for one, to speed up operation.
ok, back to windows mail and wlm. they store emails as separate files. this makes accessing them slower and marking all read a lot slower that it was in outlook express.
Now to the registry part. instead of auto-complete working from the address book when addressing an email, microsoft in their infinite wisdom, stores a whole 29 addresses auto-complete can draw from and yes, stores them in the registry. how brain-dead is that? so, if i start typing al and press enter, it may fill al@somedomain.com but i may have wanted al@someotherdaomain.com. but i can't tell, because it's not one of the last 29 addresses i used. I have to type the entire address. In outlook express, it would fill as I typed until I found the match I was looking for.
then to top it off, these addresses are stored in hex in the registry.
that's enough for now.
However, if they are going to work towards compatibility with other operating systems, won't these new services also be available for XP and Vista? If these are also available for older MS operating systems, Windows 7 may lose some of the appeal it would have otherwise had. Making it only compatible with Windows 7 would be a major mistake, IMHO, and I would doubt MS would shoot its foot so foolishly.
Overall, this is a nice development.
- by ckurowic September 22, 2008 7:53 PM PDT
- The problem is that if you have your apps completely online, you are totally dependent on the internet. What happens if the internet is down in your area? You are screwed unless you have "hard copies" of this apps running on your local computer.
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- by SJ2571 September 22, 2008 11:08 PM PDT
- Nobody said the apps will be online, unless you CHOOSE that route. You can still get all your required apps that run offline. I think a lot of people here don't "get" that, for some silly reason.
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- by Vegaman_Dan September 23, 2008 12:02 AM PDT
- There are plenty of email applciations out there on the internet to try out. Most are local system based and not reliant on the internet to read your mail once it ihas been received.
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- by frankwick September 23, 2008 11:28 AM PDT
- not true. The Live apps are desktop apps. In fact, the Live apps have replaced Vista's built-in apps TODAY. you have to download the updates today anyway, so what's the point of including a version in Win 7 that you will have do update when you turn it on?
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- by Dalkorian September 23, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
- by Vegaman_Dan September 23, 2008 12:02 AM PDT
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Showing 1 of 3 pages (131 Comments)You don't have to use web mail only unless you intentionally chose to do so.
That's the entire point of this. Giving end users a choice. Not all OEM's do that. Soem force apps and products onto you even if you don't own a supported system.
Check out Windows Live Mail and Windows Live Photo Gallery. They are MUCH better versions than what was included on Vista.
That's the entire point of this. Giving end users a choice. Not all OEM's do that. Soem force apps and products onto you even if you don't own a supported system.
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Note the OEM's will still likely shove cruftware down your throat. Just because M$ moved some apps online doesn't mean HP and Dell will stop installing their junk.