Microsoft: Apple wanted 'Laptop Hunters' ads pulled

It should come as no surprise that Apple isn't a big fan of Microsoft's "Laptop Hunters" ads, but some may be surprised to learn the Mac maker's lawyers reportedly called a senior Microsoft executive and demanded the ads be removed.

Kevin Turner, Microsoft chief operating officer

(Credit: Microsoft)

The topic of the TV ads, which feature prospective buyers comparing the prices and features of Apple laptops and Windows-based laptops, came up at Microsoft's Worldwide Partner Conference in New Orleans on Wednesday. Kevin Turner, Microsoft's chief operating officer, was at the conference to announce that Microsoft was planning to open its first stores this fall, with at least some of the locations likely to be right near an Apple store.

But the most intriguing part of Turner's speech was when he recounted a telephone call he says he got from Apple's legal department demanding that Microsoft remove the ads. Here's Turner's tale, according to Microsoft's official transcript:

And so we've been running these PC value ads. Just giving people saying, hey, what are you looking to spend? "Oh, I'm looking to spend less than $1,000." Well we'll give you $1,000. Go in and look and see what you can buy. And they come out and they just show them. Those are completely unscripted commercials.

And you know why I know they're working? Because two weeks ago we got a call from the Apple legal department saying, hey -- this is a true story -- saying, "Hey, you need to stop running those ads, we lowered our prices." They took like $100 off or something. It was the greatest single phone call in the history that I've ever taken in business. (Applause.)

I did cartwheels down the hallway. At first I said, "Is this a joke? Who are you?" Not understanding what an opportunity. And so we're just going to keep running them and running them and running them.

Apple did not immediately respond to a request for comment, but it may have good reason to be upset. Since Microsoft launched the ads, which are a response to Apple's "I'm a Mac" ads, there is evidence that the campaign may be radically altering value perceptions of PCs. According to a report in AdAge, BrandIndex says Microsoft's so-called value perception has risen steadily since the campaign began in March, while Apple's has fallen.

[shevaberg]

Sounds about right.... APPLE can bad mouth everybody with false statements.. and when the table's get turned on them... WAAAAAAAA.... that is is not fair...

[t8]

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[weedmonk]

Sounds plausible. If their fans can all come of as such preening insufferable d-nozzles than one can imagine how their legal minions are wound up. I wish they'd taped the call.

Don't worry Macolytes, the .85% gain in global marketshare over the last 2 years will continue its mighty Long March now that Dear Leader Kim Jong Jobs is back.

[Dalmatian28]

"Dear Leader Kim Jong Jobs"...haha....Weedmonk you are genius! I use to call Steve Jobs a Tech-Nazi! Yours is even better! haha Finely, it seems like everyone has had enough of "Apple's garbage"! If you need another example...just today Apple has blocked Pre users from being able to sinc with iTunes. I just hope that Apple fanboys wake up soon!!!

[baconstang]

Yawwwn... oh is finely a word finally?

[ikramerica--2008]

Actually, I predicted this as soon as Apple came out with NEW MODELS, because MS was running FALSE ADVERTISING which is a civil crime. That MS still, to this day, a month after the release of Apple computers that contradict the claims made in the commercials, runs these commercials is actionable.

That "filmmaker" who says the ONLY mac [15" MacBook Pro] available under $2000 has 2GB of RAM, that is now clearly and blatantly FALSE, and MS continues to run them. And they ran them during the NBA finals, and other shows and events with big national audiences.

Some of these ads are still valid. But some are false now.

And MS did, at first, "cave" about their false claims. The original ad with the mother asking "why would you pay twice as much" asked "why would you pay twice as much FOR THE SAME THING" which was a false claim. Apples are not "the same thing" as a Windows PC, and the hardware she was looking at was not "the same" as the the machine they bought. MS quickly edited that ad to remove "the same thing" part and added a second voice over to the end.

That they now refuse to pull these false ads means they are asking for lawsuits, not just from Apple, but from state attorneys general who police these false advertising claims and levy fines.

[jaguar717]

"MS was running false advertising which is a civil crime"
Easy there manbearpig. I hope you didn't call the Internet Police! You sound super serial.

We're talking about an mp3 company, that happens to sell some computers on the side. I don't understand why everybody gets up in arms. It's a niche, some people are willing to pay the extra for it, most aren't. No reason for the cult-like fanboys or their equally obsessed opposition.

Get over yourself.

[dhavleak]

@ ikramerica--2008

A civil crime as opposed to a criminal crime? ;-)

[qwerty-berty]

The first nugget is Turner saying this was the greatest phone call he's ever taken in business. Really? A competitors legal department calling your legal department out on a false claim? I'll bet this kind of exchange happens _all_the_time_ between megacaps and if that's the best he can do perhaps he should move on.

The second nugget is Musil's weasel journalism, saying that Apple didn't 'immediately' comment, implying that they were somehow paralyzed into inaction. But then again this whole story is a troll designed to get traffic through their ads.

The third nugget is just how many fanbots take the bait on this kind of story - there must be something like 20% of posts that don't even pretend to be anything else other than a blatant flame.

[sabredwarf]

You want to talk about false advertising. How about the legendary I am a Mac commercial were Mr Mac says " Oh dear Pc you have a virus, I don't get viruses"??? If i hear one more Mac user say they cant get viruses !! You can get viruses just like a Pc. Stop feeding yourself with Apple pie crap!

[qwerty-berty]

@sabredwarf

This is obviously anecdotal, but I've never had a virus on my Mac. Not that I know of anyway since Apple don't recommend the use of antivirus software. That may be due to the small market share but I would agree with the Apple commercial even if it makes the point in a rather smug way. Feel free to scare me into action by providing evidence of a virus I should look out for.

If it helps I am running Mac OS X 10.5.7 (9J61).

[vtonangi]

I remember paying almost $4,000 for a top of the line DELL laptop, which was Vista-capable. After I spent $400 to upgrade from XP working was almost impossible. The following week I bought a mac. Many people (including me), switched from Windows to Apple because of their tight integration of hardware & software and for the most part usually - it just works, and there are a ton of stories of people that switched to Macs in late 06/early 07 because of Windows Vista. Sure I can buy a cheap laptop for $500 that runs on Windows XP - but if price was my major concern why wouldn't I get a linux notebook? Why Windows XP - it's old & unsupported, and Vista can't run on Netbooks. If Microsoft is going to play the 'price game' then they will loose to netbooks that are run on Linux, Android, and Chrome OS.

[odubtaig]

$4,000? Was it gold plated or did it just come with a special 'more money than sense' T-Shirt?

Four grand and he buys a Dell. Gawd luv 'im.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ vtonangi, the fiction department is at the library. And don't let the door hit ya on your way out will ya?

[damiandennison]

@vtonangi where do they make people like you? 4K for a laptop from DELL!

P.S. Chrome OS is not out yet, we do not know how it will look or how it will run. I do not know of any netbooks that runs vista, no netbook maker would ever think of putting vista on a netbook. But you know what you can wait for your Mac OS to be on one from Apple, it will never happen.
Beside people like you would never buy a netbook any way it's just too cheap, which mean it's not good. For people like you if it does not cost allot of money it's simple not a good product, silly, just silly.

[JayArr8]

If you paid $4k for a notebook you got ripped. I was one of those people who got a macbook pro, cuz i like OSX and bootcamped Windows. I only got the macbook because Apple FINALLY got smart with an Intel processor and real hardware.

[PhaseDMA]

Bashing someone for paying $4k for a computer. That's nice.

Imagine this. A world where some people are rich. They like to buy things today that 6 months later will be half the price. They realize this, but they want the very best. They also like quality so they buy a computer from a company that constantly has high ratings on their computer. They also don't mind paying a premium for a product that isn't going to break the day after the warranty expires.

In this world these type of people buy Dells.

Now realize these people exist in real life.

The irony is you bash Dell for the same reasons you by Apple.

Beyond blowing money there is nothing wrong with buying a $4k laptop.

damiandennison - You say you don't know of anyone that puts Vista on their computers. Neither does vtonangi - "and Vista can't run on Netbooks.". What were you reading?

[Vegaman_Dan]

$4K for a Dell laptop? Wow, you must have bought that from some third party supplier since Dell itself didn't offer anything that expensive. :)

[protagonistic]

Ah, the usual trolls that think that price is the only way to evaluate computers. You may find this hard to believe, but there are people who choose based on the best tool for the job they want to use it for. The right tool for the job is always worth spending extra for.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ protagonistic : "Ah, the usual trolls that think that price is the only way to evaluate computers."

You are right. Specs matter too. That's why you should always buy a Windows PC, for the best specs, at the lowest orice.

@ protagonistic: "You may find this hard to believe, but there are people who choose based on the best tool for the job they want to use it for."

Correct.
Window runs a heck of a lot more essential business applications, like ERM and CRM software than Apple macs do. So don't by that mac if you wanna use that vital business software your business needs. Buy a Pc instead. Its cheaper, has better specs, and runs more apps than the Mac.

@ protagonistic: "The right tool for the job is always worth spending extra for."

Not if you can get the right tool for the job, and a nice very good price too, so buy a Windows PC.

[johnsmith84]

@ Vegaman_Dan
Actually the top of the line Dell starts at about 3200 - however if you upgrade the hdd, ram, OS and CPU you easily break 4500. As the base model of the computer ships with a 160 GB harddrive I don't think that it is a leap to assume that someone buying a high end machine would spring for the 320 GB option. And of course the extra $50 if you want Vista Ultima instead of the Buisiness edition. Without making any really crazy selections I get a price quote of 4300 - from Dell not a 3rd party seller. Just because a netbook works for you why assume that everyone else needs / wants / can use a netbook.

[johnsmith84]

@ Kwasiowusu
You sound like about as much of a tool as the Apple fanboys. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. If you buy a cheap computer it is cheap for a reason. Dell, HP, Acer, Apple - they are all in it to make a profit. Apple computers are more expensive than some other brands for a reason - which is neither a good thing or a bad thing. Just buying an Apple for the look is a waste of money if you are going to be using Word, email and the internet. But not buying an Apple because you don't like brand is just as stupid. There is a reason many professional companies use Macs to do their work on (including the company that make the Laptop Hunter ads). If you like Windows machines then more power to you - Windows 7 looks like it has a lot going for it - but try not to be a fanboy and assume that there is something wrong with anyone else who doesn't share your world view.

[Go Sox]

Oh, please. I use a pc. Unwillingly, but I use a pc. Have for years because I need the software and connectivity to other pcs on my net. However, the first computer I bought for myself was a Mac. I built a department inside a major corporation and a (Unix-based) software company by managing finance and marketing from two Macs. So. Trust me. Macs have always been more expensive. In the past, at least, one understood one was trading a bit of money for ease-of-use, fewer hackers bothering you, and (yes) a bit of cool. The low end of the market will always be the low end of the market. If they go for pc's that should be no surprise. Does Apple need a Mac for K-12? For simple home use? Maybe they can come up with a low end machine that competes. The high end Mac users are typically creative professionals who won't trade in their Macs to save a couple bucks. I think these new Microsoft ads are bizarre. Actually the best thing for Apple is to have kids' parents be forced to buy a pc, have lots of problems, crashes, viruses, worms, etc. and THEN try to get support from Microsoft. We all know how THAT will play out. And that might be the best possible way to build a long term customer base for Apple. Just saying.

[damiandennison]

@Go Sox the only problem with your comments is that apple is marketing the Mac not only to high end customers but also to the low end customers. Come on what is the real justification for Macs being do expensive? They do not crash, they do not get viruses come one we know that is not true. If that was the case you would not have Mac techs that make a living from fixing them. You would not have companies making antivirus software for them too. Lets just be real.

[OS11]

@damiandennison - Macs haven't been expensive for over a decade, they start at $572 for a brand new model and that includes shipping and tax, then most are around $1,200 which isn't expensive if you want quality hardware & software. Check the national, real time price matrix for Macs, and you'll see they are priced almost identically to a similar PC configuration. www.macprices.net

No, OSX based Macs have never gotten a virus, just a few harmless trojans. There aren't many Apple tech since the stuff doesn't break often, but lots of people are moving from PCs to Macs so there is that side of the business and lots of wireless, iphone, tv, stereo integration going on.

The only need for AV software on a Mac is if you still have PC's running Windows on your network, Macs don't get viruses but can act as "carriers", so that would be the only reason. Apple provides all the security IN the OS so you don't pay extra or have to rely on 3rd parties like Microsoft makes you do. Macs are free of all that nonsense since they are based on BSD Unix.

Now you know!

[Lerianis3]

Bull, OS11. I have done that comparing, and Macs are NOT priced the same as a comparable PC. In fact, for the price of one Macbook or Mac, I can get 2 PC's with better specs in most cases!

[Rolker]

OS11

I've been using PCs for 2 decades, and I only got a "ping pong" virus on my PC in the DOS era.
Right now I'm using Vista on a Dell laptop, and I never had a virus. I never had a problem with my laptop, and things are working well.
This myth about PCs breaking every day, infected with viruses, and crashing on a daily basis is just untrue.
BTW, there are great AV that are free and work great. And Windows has a decent firewall too, which is enough for most people.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but OS X has been patched a lot with security holes, same as Windows.

[cloudmatt]

will your mac run Crysis? not saying games like that are what everyone does but there is a laundry list of programs games etc. that don't run mac. hardware aside the os just don't jive with the programs. even if the hardware could, which we don't know cause the os can't. Go to computer store, hunt down the mac software section, turn around and see the multiple isles of Pc then turn back to see the single shelf of mac stuff. I guess mac is fine if all you need is to write a paper but if I'm sinking mac amounts of money it better write the paper for me.

[wanorris]

@OS11 - Just checked Dell's site, and it you're looking for an entry-level system, they start at $249 (including keyboard and mouse!), and $349 including a 19" flatscreen monitor. If you're looking for a starter computer, $572 for a system with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse is still higher than many options out there. And yeah, the systems may not be directly comparable, but if the Dell does everything you need, it doesn't matter.

10" Minis start at $299, and 15" Inspirons start at $379.

In a recession where many people don't have a lot of money to spend, $600 for a not-ready-to-use desktop and $1000 for a notebook *are* a lot of money. Even if Macs are completely worth it, the reality is that they are not a factor in the budget segment.

BTW, I love the idea that being based on Unix makes Macs immune to security threats. Every unix/linux systems professional in the world is laughing at you right now.

[yugota]

@OS11 - OSX based macs have never gotten a virus? Now we know that you're delusional. Viruses have been around for OSX for over three years, and I believe that last year, Adobe and Apple found what is probably the biggest security hole ever across any OS, something that would never be possible in the latest versions of Windows due to the amount of security that it has. The only reason that OSX hasn't been hit with wide-scale bad viruses is because they do not have the market share to make it worthwhile to those who write viruses, not because they aren't susceptible to them.

[OS11]

@yugota - No, I keep track and there has "never" been a OSX virus. You are probably thinking of a worm or trojan, there are about 7 of those in total. OSX is just far more battled tested than Windows since it has a BSD Unix foundation and it doesn't allow for viruses because of the way "root" and "admin" are completely separated... and the fact each file has a set of privileges which cannot be changed without approval from the Admin.

@others - I think we all had a laugh at people trying to find cheaper PCs than Macs... they all failed since they removed lots of features to get to that low of price. Look at comparable configurations and you'll see PCs and Macs are priced about the same. Just try and get a Mac mini level machine for $572 in the PC space... the size, silent operation, display port, firewire 800, etc, etc makes the Mac mini the best machine compared to what PCs can offer for the price.

Now you know!

[grtgrfx]

I've never seen how anyone could blame Apple for the lack of games on Macs. If EA or MS or the other studios were willing to MAKE the games, Macs would run them just fine. The reason some software doesn't run on Macs is that the software companies are too lazy to write for Macs. So the next time you say, "Well, Crysis doesn't run on Macs," tell it to CryTek for not making a Mac version.

Of course it's irrelevant, since -I- play Crysis, BioShock, COD, etc., quite nicely on MY Mac. In fact I should play less since, it keeps me up until 4am all too often.

[Jeremy Chappell]

Yeah, the ads are stupid - but then so are people.

I find it amazing that a software company (Microsoft) cannot understand the value of software. So this laptop costs more than this one - how can that be?

Because one has tons of pointless trialware, a virus magnet OS an little else. The other has Unix, the full developer tools, better system software, better browser, and iLife on it. In short something for everyone.

[gerrrg]

LOL. Calling people who use PCs running windows "stupid" is not exactly going to earn Mac points.

[baconstang]

Yeah.... unaware is more like it.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Considering that Macs are now PC's, you may want to rephrase your attack accordingly to not insult the very people you are trying to promote.

[pithenumber]

"the value of software"
1. You can install Mac OS X on any modern computer with an x86 CPU, its called Hackintosh
2. I agree that bloatware sucks, thats why computers that I sell don't have any
3. iLife sucks, there are far better alternatives
4. FireFox pwns IE and Safari, you get a sucky browser with both Mac and Windows
"In short something for everyone."
does Apple have something for
1. corporations? No, you need Windows
2. gamers? No, DirectX pwns and its MS only
3. IT admins of large companies? No, Microsoft makes it easier for admins of lots of computers to deal with
4. server farms? No, Linux is fast and its free, how does one compete with that and make money at the same time? answer, you can't.
5. High Performance Computing? Mac OS isn't really designed for this. Windows HPCand some flavours of Linux are.

Apple targets a specific group consumers
they do a pretty job at that
but everywhere else, Mac OS simply can't compete with Windows and Linux

[mindfeck]

Do you work for Apple, or are you just brainwashed? Windows PCs don't have much trial programs, you don't get viruses unless you're a moron, and there are more/better browsers for PCs. iLife has the same features as free programs you can get for Windows PCs.

[ckh1272]

pithenumber says-"5. High Performance Computing? Mac OS isn't really designed for this. Windows HPCand some flavours of Linux are."

I guess a MacPro doesn't count. Ignorance is not the way to sell your product, which you are obviously trying to do by mentioning that you sell computers. Most everything else on your list is almost entirely subjective.

[Vegaman_Dan]

@ckh1272:

With the current specs of MacBookPros... no, they do not compete in performance with similar systems running Linux. This isn't a bad thing- just different hardware and operating systems for different purposes.

And yes, you are once again promoting one product (apple) over another even though you have previously said you do not favor any one brand or product.

Gotcha.

[El_Segfaulto]

The only question I have is which OS currently has 64 bit version of the Adobe Create Suite? Personally I'd prefer to address all 16GB of RAM in my PC than just 4 in a more 'creative' Mac.

[drfrost]

I do find it strange that MS is running it's ad's based on hardware specs when MS is.... a software company.

I think that the Apple OS >> MS OS. Though Apple needs to develop things like DirectX.

I think that Apple hardware < Generic PC hardware and more expensive. In the last few years this has been a more complicated comparison. Apple actually isn't that bad when a model is released, but they simply don't update their models at near the same rate that _insert_PC_manufacturer_here_ does. And, furthermore, Apple doesn't tend to lower it's prices on said hardware. Also, a fully decked out MacPro is a very impressive piee of hardware... by any standard and at any price. But in the middle.... where most of the market lives (and where I live)... Apple didn't compare well. And, in my humble opinion, they still don't.

I'm a "unix for work because I want to" and "windows for games because I have to" guy.

[drfrost]

ckh1272:

No, MacPro doesn't count for high performance computing. We're not talking about 4 or 8.... or even 16 processor cores here. We're talking about hundreds. The MacPro is an impressive machine.... I'd love to have one under my desk (preferably running linux). But it's not a supercomputer.

[belawrence]

let the fanboi melee BEGIN!

[shane--2008]

Do you have any idea how stupid you have to be to actually believe that a group of lawyers for a major company would call a major rival and say "Hey, you need to stop running those ads, we lowered our prices."???

Heck you would have to be an MS partner to be that du.... oh, sorry. I see now.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ shane :" Do you have any idea how stupid you have to be to actually believe that a group of lawyers for a major company would call a major rival and say "Hey, you need to stop running those ads, we lowered our prices."???"

I am yet to hear Apple denying this. And Apple is the kind of very aggressive company that would have denied it by now, if they didn't in fact make that call.

[thebroz38]

I absolutely don't believe Apple Legal call Microsoft regarding commercials. Perhaps this Microsoft guy was the victim of a hoax, or he's outright lying.

[mb33139]

Hate to point out the obvious, but this happens daily. Remember the Domino's ad with the CEO burning the letter from Subway (in regards to a claim that Domino's was preferred 2 to 1 for sandwiches)? Domino's even had posted a copy of the letter on their website, showing the world how petty Subway's lawyers were.

[hankthedwarf]

I've always wondered if Apple can go after Microsoft for centering their ad campaign around the specific term "I'm a PC", since Apple's been using it verbatim for a couple years.

[Perry_Clease]

Ummm, yeah. What number was shown on the caller ID?

[Random_Walk]

...I'm thinking the same thing. The COO probably thought it was a cheap throwaway line that would (ostensibly) never leave a room full of fawning partner reps.

Apple didn't "immediately respond", most likely because they didn't respond at all (nice bit o' yellow journalism there, champ!) After all, why bother to dignify something that's obviously not going to pass the BS filter? Psystar (the Hackintosh maker) found out the hard way that Apple's legal team prefers to launch lawsuits instead of merely making threats... and anyone in the tech game knows it.

Now the 'laptop hunter' ads have long since been sussed out as either fakes or as blatant deception (again, it doesn't take much to compare specs, eh?) So why would Apple bother? The survey quoted at the end of the article certainly doesn't translate into sales figures (see also Apple's sales growth/loss vs. Dell's and HP's), and I suspect that the correlation is faulty anyway - see also the positive press over Windows 7 RC over the same time period...

[rhemler220]

Repeating what others said "macs just work". I can't recall the last time my mac froze up on me. If you were to ask me when my computer running vista froze up i'd tell you five hours ago. Also with a mac you can take it to get fixed, apple's customer service is great. As for Microsoft's stores, they might be a welcome sight to people who might actually be able to physically take their computer somewhere. Not to mention though it will probably cost money to get your computer fixed seeing as how Microsoft does not manufacture computers. That is what I would like to see. Let everybody else run chrome os. But back to the ads, again Microsoft does not make computers. Who also says these computers run better, (viruses, cheap hardware). Enough said.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ by rhemler220 :"Repeating what others said "macs just work"."

Macs "just work"/
Yeah..like an exploding Mac laptop. Chortle:

Another Apple PowerBook violently explodes
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/06/another-powerbook-violently-explodes

[trintronics]

@rhemler220: Another Apple.... /2006/08/06

Wow, u had to go back to 2006 to find something bad to say about a Mac not to mention the fact that using Vista sometimes makes my head want to Violently explode.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ trintronics :"Wow, u had to go back to 2006 to find something bad to say about a Mac "

Doesn't make it any less valid, nor change the fact that Apple Macs have had a long history of technical problems.

[samradley]

@rhemler220 you may have missed few other hits on "burnt laptop batteries"...

http://www.geoexpat.com/forum/thread12986.html

PC's had similar fate!

[topgunb2]

@samradley, exactly, both have similar issues, then why is mac twice the price of pc???

[ckh1272]

"by Kwasiowusu July 15, 2009 8:18 PM PDT
@ trintronics :"Wow, u had to go back to 2006 to find something bad to say about a Mac "

Doesn't make it any less valid, nor change the fact that Apple Macs have had a long history of technical problems."

@Kwasiowusu--Compared to who?? Care to provide some proof that Apple systems are worse than others? Perhaps it's just easier to provide cherry picked facts to prove your point as opposed to showing real facts (number of Apple hardware problems vs. Dell, HP, Lenovo, Gateway, Sony, etc.).

[cary1]

my Mac froze up yesterday. Had to reboot it to make it work again

[cloudmatt]

@rhemler

Get a clue. Get over yourself. Get some prescriptive. ""macs just work". I can't recall the last time my mac froze up on me." I've frozen macs and crashed macs and so have many people, good for you that you have had no problems, but your computer is just as crashable as mine. "If you were to ask me when my computer running vista froze up i'd tell you five hours ago. " I've been running vista for over 2 years now in a 24/7 box stable with no crash. this is just a credible as your claim to no freeze no crash as we all know it would be a lie to say windows doesn't crash, just saying that your a little exaggerated there. Microsoft isn't saying "It's a Windows computer" they are saying "It's a PC", they could have been getting a linux system and the slogan would still be true. Macs are cute and good at graphics, you show me a gaming mac with benches comparable with other gaming rigs that can play crysis you can have a convert. till then your a mac and I'm a PC

[rapier1]

Don't get me wrong I like my Mac but I'm realistic. I've had kernel panics and so have a lot of other people. I've had apps crash unexpectedly (I'm looking at you Safari). I've had to get mac laptops serviced because of failed components. They're just tools and like any tool you use continuously you'll have occasional problems with them. Fanboism, zealotry, and partisanship is just weird and creepy when it comes to computers.

[pithenumber]

last time I saw a Mac not working was about 30 minutes ago, HDD died, happens a lot in all types of computers

Macs fail just as much as computers from any other good OEM

[MegaMoose--2008]

Regardless of what you think of Apple or Microsoft, these are some of the most obnoxious commercials on TV, partly because they DO play them over and over and over. Plus they lose all credibility when every commercial takes an obvious stab at Apple, completely obliterating any conception that these are just regular people out shopping for a computer.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ MegaMoose--2008 :"Regardless of what you think of Apple or Microsoft, these are some of the most obnoxious commercials on TV, partly because they DO play them over and over and over"

You mean like the really obnoxious, nasty, virulent anti-Windows ads that Apple has been running for a massive over 7 years now, yes?
The trouble with you Applebots is, you can dish it out, but you sure can't seem to take it. You gotta suck it up buddy.

[baconstang]

Yeah, but the "I'm a PC/I'm a Mac" ads are funny and clever. Not boring and obviously faked.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ baconstang :"Yeah, but the "I'm a PC/I'm a Mac" ads are funny and clever"

Only to an Applebot.
Those ads were packed full of outright lies and deceit. Nothing clever or funny about that.
Now Microsoft is hitting back at Apple where it hurts, and Apple is gonna go crying to mamma?
Don't make me laugh.

[doobz94]

@Kwasiowusu

Thank you for proving to me that the only thing more obnoxious than a whiny "Applebot" is a whiny "Microbot" (not very clever but you get that you're a crazy, closed minded Microsoft fanboy). And before you call me an "Applebot" for dissing something non-Apple but not actually praising Apple, read what you're saying. Calling someone an Apple fanboy for criticizing the Laptop Hunter's ad, without them actually saying anything Apple being superior or anything, makes you a fanboy.

[baconstang]

Danke Doob.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ doobz94 :"Thank you for proving to me that the only thing more obnoxious than a whiny "Applebot" is a whiny "Microbot""

Hey, its not Microsoft that is making whinny calls to Apple complaining about those nasty Apple macattack ads they have been running for over 7 years now. It's Apple and the Applebots that aremaking phone calls and whinning here.
You dish it out, you darn well be ready to take it on the chin too.

@ doobz94:"And before you call me an "Applebot" for dissing something non-Apple but not actually praising Apple, read what you're saying. Calling someone an Apple fanboy for criticizing the Laptop Hunter's ad, without them actually saying anything Apple being superior or anything, makes you a fanboy. "

I am gonna use your own definition on you then. Going by your just created defintion of what an Applebot is, you just called yourself an Applebot, which would sounds about right to me, because that's exactly what you are..
And BTW, I called the guy an Applebot because he was talking utter nonsense about the Microsoft laptop ads,( which just happen to be SPOT ON), even while cheeerfully negleting to mention all those nasty, full of baloney Apple attacks ads that Apple has been running for years against Microsoft FOR YEARS. Compared to some of the contents of them nasty Apple attack ads, the Microsoft laptop ads look postitively benign

[Vegaman_Dan]

@Baconstang:

The I'm a PC ads are what they are. Microsoft didn't tell those people what to say or what products to choose. That was real life end users... consumers... making up their own choices based on what was available for their criteria.

[baconstang]

Ummm. Sure Veggy. Ever spend much time in helLA?

[ckh1272]

"by Vegaman_Dan July 15, 2009 10:04 PM PDT
@Baconstang:

The I'm a PC ads are what they are. Microsoft didn't tell those people what to say or what products to choose. That was real life end users... consumers... making up their own choices based on what was available for their criteria."

Yeah and reality TV shows are completely real!! Christ on a stick people, believe what you want to believe and use what you want to use. Microbots and Applebots just need to grow up and just enjoy what they have instead worrying about what everyone else is using and why they are wrong for using them.

[Seaspray0]

@baconstang. Here's the difference.

I'm a mac/pc ads - scripted, rehearsed.
microsoft shopper ads - not scripted, not rehersed.

And regardless of what you or anyone else may spew, the public has already decided what that means.

[Earl Benzar]

Right, like we have any reason at all to believe a word from Turner.

[etiahwhite]

The one microsoft ad that irks me the most is that guy that says that to him macs are more about aesthetics then the computing power....Doesn't sound like a well informed statement to me. I know lots of creative types and busy bodies that can't use macs cuz there the best at getting the job done. I'm not some super techy person but I tell you what the last $1000 PC I bought was rendered useless after about 9 months. As for tech support I had pay like $50 for a block of time that I never used because I decided the computer was garbage. Yes, I had virus protection and no I don't download porn. So yeah I paid $1700 for my macbook and you know what it still works 2 years later. It isn't slow I don't have to defrag and restart and do system restores. I only had to take to the genius bar once and only cuz that latch wouldn't catch when it closed. I don't have to lug it to friends dad and hope that he can bring it back to life. My mac just works! I'm not hating on the ads to each his own but there is no denying that the maintenance costs of owning a pc surely add up to the cost of a mac (which requires little to no maintenance).

[Kwasiowusu]

@ etiahwhite :"but I tell you what the last $1000 PC I bought was rendered useless after about 9 months."

Had my desktop for over 5 years. Still going strong.
My laptop has been with me over 2 years now, and is stilll as good as ever.

@ etiahwhite :"My mac just works!"

Another Apple PowerBook violently explodes
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/06/another-powerbook-violently-explodes/

[baconstang]

I've seen videos of PCs blowing up too. Most faulty Sony batteries.
Truth is Macs require far less maintenance. Much easier, especially if you're not a geek.
I like to drive my car without becoming a mechanic.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ baconstang :"I've seen videos of PCs blowing up too"

Hey it's the Applebots that keep coming up with their "My mac just works!" spiel. They needed to be called out on that, by showing Macs that kept exploding.

@ baconstang:"Truth is Macs require far less maintenance. Much easier, especially if you're not a geek"

No they don't.
Over 90% of computer users on the entire planet, use Windows, the vast majority of them are not even close to being geeks. They just buy their Windows computers, trurn it on, and just use it. Just like that.
Windows is more non-geek friendly than Macs, and the numbers prove it.

[etiahwhite]

It's just my experience that PC's aren't built to last. The only PC I've owned that didn't go all wonky on me was a Viao it didn't die or have issues I just out grew it but aside from that one I've had 3 other PC's that didn't make it more then 2 years. As for exploding powerbooks...I'm glad to say I've not had any computers explode mac or pc.

[docster87]

Before it explodes, IN MY EXPERIENCE, Macs work/function overall a lot better than the general PC with Windows. Sure, once the Mac explodes (and I gather ALL MACS HAVE BOMBS IN THEM) it won't function better than Windows - but before it explodes Macs run circles around Windows - IN MY EXPERIENCE.

[Jonathan Monahan]

@kwasiowusu http://www.google.com/trends?q=mac+crash%2C+pc+crash&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1

[Kwasiowusu]

@ etiahwhite:"It's just my experience that PC's aren't built to last. "

That's funny. I have a very old Gateway computer that I still use occasionaly. It still works fine. And it's all of over 10 years old. Still as strong as ever.
But of course, an Applebot, who has probably never used a Windows computer, can always come post pure fiction, about his non-existent Windows PC that "died on him within 2 years".
You guys crack me up. You really do. Don't you have anythng better to do with your lives?

[Kwasiowusu]

@ docster87 :" but before it explodes Macs run circles around Windows - IN MY EXPERIENCE"

Well 90% of the world's personal computer buyers, who walk right by the Apple Mac isle, and cheerfuly go and plunk down their hard earned money for Windows PC's, time after time again, simply just don't agree with you.
But hey, youall Applebots can keep the 3% worldwide market share.

[baconstang]

I just love Kwasi...moto. He's got to be the funniest one on this site in months.
Gateway eh? Makes a great cow lick I've heard.
Seriously, I think some Macs might work better than a Gateway even after they've flamed.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ baconstang: "Gateway eh? Makes a great cow lick I've heard"

One things for sure, it don't make them nasty exploding sounds that all them mac laptops used to make when they exlpoded in consumers faces, and put their personal safety at risk. And I have had it for over 10 years now. No explosions, see?

[jacksoncapper]

Without adding to the endless Microsoft vs Apple debate, please let's remember that regardless of which product you prefer, competition is only ever good news for us consumers. You might think Windows/Mac is fantastic, yet you scoff at the competitions attempts to compete, when in fact you should be excited because it's only going to be prodding up the benchmarks!

[ZetaZeta_]

My thoughts exactly, every time.

[drfrost]

Yes and no.... I love competition. I hate unfair competition. I hate "underhanded" tactics.

http://www.ad-mkt-review.com/public_html/air/ai200706.html

There's plenty of trash on Apple as well (we all know Apple is a litigious company).

This !$^@%^ nearly makes my head explode.

[setgo]

Wow, now there's a funny mental image. Goliath skipping down the hall because he got a reaction from David. Maybe they know how the story is going to end.

[NeverFade]

Great analogy! :)

[drfrost]

In my story Ubuntu is David, MS is Goliath and Apple is Goliath's little brother..... who no one remembers anymore.

[fairtradeguy]

I laughed so hard when I read this story; no litigator would risk his position with a Fortune 100 Company to make such an obviously contrived call.

This "story" is more likely a "red flag" that some Mr. Turner made up to impress that wiz kid Mr. Ballmer. Mr. Ballmer is the greatest kiss *ss in the entire world and he loves it when others shine his apple
With the recent revelations in the past week that planted ?reviews? paid by corporations on such venerable websites as ? eopinons.com and others nothing can be ruled out.

I bought Apple 16 years ago at $11, today it?s worth $146.00 ? too bad Microsoft has not performed at this level in over two decades.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ fairtradeguy :"no litigator would risk his position with a Fortune 100 Company to make such an obviously contrived call"

Sadly for you, the Apple legal department guy did.
You gonna call him stupid too?

[fairtradeguy]

Kwasiowusu - Use brain please - he made it up - proof please - recording - transcript.....??

Go back and play with the kids, leave the adult table at once.

[chrispix99]

"I bought Apple 16 years ago at $11, today it?s worth $146.00 ? too bad Microsoft has not performed at this level in over two decades."

MSFT adjusted for splits was July 23, 1993 was $2.42 today it was $24.12 Almost a 20x increase in my investment.
APPL $11.00 today $146.00 apx 13.27x increase in investment. I would say MSFT is doing better than APPL 16 years later.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ by fairtradeguy:" Use brain please - "

Not that it maters much, but one hardly needs much use of one's brains to take down yet another mindless Applebot. It's a fun sport.

@ fairtradeguy:"he made it up - proof please - recording - transcript.....?? "

Ummm..you are the one that insisted that Kevin Turner did not receicve that call, so why don't you prove it?
Meanwhile, it is to be noted that, we are yet to hear any denial from Apple.
Given how loud and aggressive Apple is, wouldn't you think they'd have replied to such a high profile ridicule from a top Microsoft exec by now if it wasn't in fact TRUE?

@ fairtradeguy:"Go back and play with the kids, leave the adult table at once"

Since you are obvioulsy posting from the kiddies table in yo momma's basement, there is no need for any mature, sensible non-Applebot posters to leave this table is there?

[baconstang]

I've only tracked APPL since early 2003. It was $13 then. With the split a few years ago, and $146 now that about 22x.

[ecotony]

Apple:
Feb 18, 2005 2-for-1 Stock Split
May 19, 2000 2-for-1 Stock Split

I think you need to look at those readjusted numbers for Apple too.

[Im_not_Herbert]

@ fairtradeguy-

It is not up to him to provide proof of the statement. It is up to *you* to prove the original statement is false.

Your post was insulting and incorrect, and you tell someone *else* to leave the kids table? Just... WOW.

[wanorris]

Apple *has* had a better history than Microsoft over the past few years. Of course, Apple massively underperformed Microsoft from IPO through about 2003, the first 19 years of their existence. (Though technically, Apple didn't start underperforming Microsoft until 2 years later in 1986 when Microsoft IPOed. But they didn't exactly set the market on fire for those two years either.)

Over the full history, Microsoft's shares grew 4 times faster, even counting the last few years when Apple has been catching up.

Now Microsoft is so huge that they're basically not a growth company anymore -- there isn't any more market share for them to take. Which is why they're issuing dividends now.

See for yourself:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=my&s=AAPL&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=msft

[jasonaorr]

I don't have trouble believing Microsoft's ad campaign is changing value perceptions of their products. In any recession the price point makes a bigger impact, and that has never been Apple's strong suit. A more interesting question is: when the economy recovers, will consumers still care that they can save money with a Windows-based PC or will they splurge for the boutique Apple PC?

[baconstang]

All things considered regarding ownership, they could always save money buying a Mac.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ jasonaorr :"more interesting question is: when the economy recovers, will consumers still care that they can save money with a Windows-based PC or will they splurge for the boutique Apple PC? "

Recession or no recession, Windows PC's have been outselling Macs by a ratio of approx 30:1 worldwide (Windows 90% share to Mac's 3% share worldwide). It's been going on long before ths recession, and it will go on long after the recession. Nothing's gonna change it.

[baconstang]

I can live with that. Especially since all the MS fanbots say the reason there's no OSX viruses is due lack of market.
Works for me and a few million other happy Mac users.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ baconstang:"I can live with that"

Apple obviously can't.
Thats why they have been running these antiMicrosoft ads for over 7 years now in an attempt to take down Windows.

@ baconstang:":"Especially since all the MS fanbots say the reason there's no OSX viruses is due lack of market"

OSX has had plenty of security holes, even without the virus writers bothering with it because of it's tiny market share.
Apple plugs 21 Mac OS X security holes
http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=2311

Apple fixes dozens of holes with OS X security update
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10163217-83.html

Apple Ships 41 Patches for Tiger, Leopard
"The company corrects several high-risk issues that Apple warns can lead to "unexpected application termination or arbitrary code execution.
Apple has shipped a major security update to correct at least 41 vulnerabilities affecting users of its flagship Mac operating system"
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Apple-Ships-41-Patches-for-Tiger-Leopard/
Apple seems to be doing just fine, puttng big security holes in their OS, even without virus writers bothering with them, aren't they?


@ baconstang:"Works for me and a few million other happy Mac users"

Since I am happily posting this from my superb Win 7 RC 1 laptop, with no problems whatsoever, I doubt if any Mac uers are happier than I am with my OS right now.

[ZetaZeta_]

You don't need to splurge on a Mac and have great performance... Ubuntu is free. -__-

[baconstang]

Kwasi... and I'm sure you'll stay happy. Just don't forget to take your meds.

[Lerianis3]

by baconstang July 15, 2009 10:49 PM PDT
Kwasi... and I'm sure you'll stay happy. Just don't forget to take your meds.

Losing argument..... PERSONAL INSULT TIME. You lost the argument, baconstang, and frankly..... SHUT THE HELL UP NOW!
Getting tired of hearing ******** boasting about their computers, when they have JUST AS MANY problems as PC users do, if not more, viruses excepted and them only because their operating system is an also-ran operating system.

[drfrost]

by baconstang July 15, 2009 10:49 PM PDT
Kwasi... and I'm sure you'll stay happy. Just don't forget to take your meds.

Poor form. Resorting to personal insults just makes you look bad baconstang...

[ckh1272]

Kwasiowusu-"Since I am happily posting this from my superb Win 7 RC 1 laptop, with no problems whatsoever, I doubt if any Mac uers are happier than I am with my OS right now."

@Kwasiowusu--I'm so glad that you are happy, but I know of at least one person who is just as happy as you are. Me and I am playing around with three different OSs' with no problems as well. So what was your point again. It seems to be that you just want to blow smoke up your own posterior.

[wired_x]

It doesnt matter. When that happens, the best will change their game to suit the scenario.

[gbreed07]

Something is wrong here. Why would Apple legal be so unprofessional. I just don't by the story!

[Perry_Clease]

Exactly, probably a prank

[cloudmatt]

Possibly bunk or info misread and miss reported. I call the latter. It was probably a call to inform of the Newly changed pricing and or upgraded system specs and that apple planed to file for slander if Microsoft didn't cease and desist. The new wave of this series of commercial has already started. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts this so called Reporting/Journalism is little more than an exaggeration of the facts. Competing companies constantly go back and forth on these things, and if you pay attention to commercials you would notice. small changes in wording removing certain sections of a commercial.

now don't get me wrong I love a story like this to blow up the board, banging my shield and shaking my spear with the rest of you. the story is little more than an exaggeration of routine marketing procedure.

[cmreyher]

The fact that MS even has to target Macs is telling enough. MS is the market leader, right? Or is this about ego? MS further screws the pooch by betraying PC buyers as ill informed and not really knowing what they want. All they are doing is reinforcing Apple's advertising strategy.

[monkeyfun14]

Newsflash 80% of computer buyers whether they are buying a Mac or a PC have no clue how the machine works and this is exactly how they shop.

[monkeyfun14]

Newsflash 80% of computer buyers whether they are buying a Mac or a PC have no clue how the machine works and this is exactly how they shop.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ cmreyher :"The fact that MS even has to target Macs is telling enough. MS is the market leader, right?"

Would that have something tdo do with the fact that Apple has been running anti-Microsoft ads, mostly full of lies, for the past 7 years, without any reply from Microsoft?
And that it was about time Microsoft hit back hard at Apple?
This stupid phone call, only goes to prove that Apple has a glass jaw, and I am just loving it.

@ cmreyher "MS further screws the pooch by betraying PC buyers as ill informed and not really knowing what they want. "

Ummm...NOPE.
It's Apple that has been playing on the stupidity of Applebotsas suckers for years, by selling them overpriced junk, that can't even play most of the top AAA games that get released every year(like Call of Duty), or run a large chunk of the applications that run on Windows...and for that they pay an average of THREE TIMES as much for their laptops,as the average Windows PC user. Go figure.

[baconstang]

I didn't realize Windows was the official OS of the Crystal crowd.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ baconstang , that's OS X you talking about dude.
All them drugged out junkies out there proudly hugging their Apple macs.

[baconstang]

No comment.

[EricJM001]

"AAA Games"? There hasn't been a AAA game on the PC in nearly a decade. Are you referring to Crysis, Unreal Tournament, or Quake Wars? I have played all those games and have to say that not one of them was AAA, more like the same old over-worked tired excuse for a game. The consoles are where all the AAA games are.

I bought a Wii for my kids and was blown away by the inventiveness and variety of Super Mario Galaxy. Twilight Princess was an amazing adventure game with a load of variety as well. Wii sports was really a new experience in home gaming, 100% original and AAA worthy. PC games completely lack variety, same games on different game engines. What you are calling AAA, I call a complete waste of time.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ EricJM001: ""AAA Games"? There hasn't been a AAA game on the PC in nearly a decade"

ROTFL!
Call of Duty 4
Call of Duty World At War
and this Christmas there wil be call of Duty Mordern warfare 2 on Windows PC.s. all of them rated over 90 at Metacritic and bonma fide AAA games. All of them on Windows PC's. Not even ONE of them on the pathetic Apple Mac's.
And thats just for staters.
Left4Dead and Left4Dead 2 are on Window PC's.
The Mac version? NON EXISTENT.
You want me to go on clown face?

[Kwasiowusu]

@ by EricJM001 :" bought a Wii for my kids and was blown away by the inventiveness and variety of Super Mario Galaxy. "

Ummm.. Mario Galazy game oiut 2 years ago. If I remember correctly, Mario Halaxy was laughtered by Bishock on the XBOX 360 in the 2007 Game of the Year awards.
And you don't need me to remind you that mario Galaxy does NOT run on the Apple mac.
The Wii is an underpowered "2 Gamecubes duct taped together", with 2001 technology and an avalanche of shoverware. That wii of yours couldn't run AAA super games like Uncharted, Uncharted 2, Gears of War or Mass Efffect if it tried. It simply doesn't have the oomph to run such great games. But that is another story.

[Inconnux]

Price has always been the strongest point for PC users and reliability/ease of use has always been the Mac's strength. It is kind of funny that Apple called Microsoft... remember people ads are propaganda and should be viewed with a large grain of salt! :)

[Lerianis3]

Excuse me, but PC's are easier to use than 'one mouse button' Mac's, period and done with.
I have ALWAYS been able to just boot a PC up and begin using it.... I cannot say the same thing about a Mac, though that might be because I am used to Windows OS's.

[ballmerisanape]

Lerianis3,

The standard Apple mouse is programmable... and has 5 "buttons"... Also.. it's roller-ball allows for 360 degree scrolling. Welcome to 2009.

[Kwasiowusu]

@ by ballmerisanape :"The standard Apple mouse is programmable... and has 5 "buttons"... "

What "standard" Apple mouse is that?
Apple macs have always used one brttton mouse. Or is Apple copying Windows PC's and caling them "Apple innovation" again?

[FlyingPie]

@Kwasiowusu :
Maybe you could try doing some research before you post. Apple has been using multiple-button mice for quite a while now. The mouse that ballmerisanape was referring to was Apple's Might Mouse, shown here:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB112LL/A/Mighty-Mouse

And Apple copying Windows PCs? Again, maybe you should do some more research. Apple had the first GUI for personal computers, which is part of what prompted Microsoft to start working on Windows. Yes, Apple did get the idea from Xerox, but Apple developed their consumer GUI before Microsoft. Microsoft is the company that tends not to innovate - they usually buy innovating companies in order to acquire their ideas and products.

I'm a longtime PC/Windows user, but even I know these things..

[ballmerisanape]

Kwasiowusu,

Are you kidding me? Are you really that uninformed? Your doing a really good job at looking a little dated...

Apple has had included their programmable mouse with Macs for a few years now. I think it was around 2005 or 2006 when they did away with the one-button mouse.

Even before then.. all you had to do was plug in a 3rd party mouse.. I used to use an old Dell three button mouse with my laptop.

[ckh1272]

"by Kwasiowusu July 16, 2009 6:54 AM PDT
@ by ballmerisanape :"The standard Apple mouse is programmable... and has 5 "buttons"... "

What "standard" Apple mouse is that?
Apple macs have always used one brttton mouse. Or is Apple copying Windows PC's and caling them "Apple innovation" again?"

@Kwsiowusu---Do they make you wear helmets at your school?? Apple has been using a multi-button mouse for years. It may look like just one piece, but the "buttons" are inside the mouse, courtesy of sensors. Think of it as semi-touch sensitive left and right click. That statement of yours just proved your blatant ignorance of the facts. Care to offer a rebuttal?? Maybe later because I hear your school bell ringing. I thought I would let you know because I know it's hard to hear with that helmet on.

[Inconnux]

@ Lerianis3

Macs are generally user friendly to those who first start using computers. Their interface is intuitive and because they control the hardware as well as the software, they generally just work without any fiddling around. Yes it is because you are use to PC's... So am I, as I have been using Microsoft products since Dos 5.0. All the people I know with Macs have relatively few problems... the biggest problem with them has been with overheating. Windows has always been the standard because of price. A PC has always been cheaper, but with the lower cost comes other problems.

[CDubber]

Macs. More expensive. Worth every penny.

The MS ads basically say "Buy cheap plastic laptops with crummy Windows software - because you don't deserve better."

P.S. I doubt this "phone call" was anything like what Mr. Turner is claiming.

[monkeyfun14]

It was okay when Apple used plastic though.

I love how change so easily with Mac users.

Like peasants.

[srminton]

@monkeyfun - like peasants? what do you mean?

[z4dude4]

@monkeyfun14

apple did use "plastic laptops" but they weren't "cheap"

[Kwasiowusu]

@ z4dude4 :"apple did use "plastic laptops" but they weren't "cheap" "

No?
So why don''t you tell us exactly what kind of plastic Apple was using for their macs then eh?
You are the chemist here, right?

[amaaanda]

Seriously. Every time I see those commercials and their ****** HP laptops I laugh. Good luck with your garbage, homie. I've owned Dells and Gateways and ****** HPs and Toshibas and they're all crap. Swore I'd never be a mac user. But what can I say, once you go Mac you never go back.

[ballmerisanape]

Kwa... it's called polycarbonate... the same stuff they use in gas stations to protect the cashier at night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate