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March 10, 2009 4:09 AM PDT

Apple touch-screen Netbook rumors heat up

by David Carnoy
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Concept art for an Apple touch-screen Netbook.

(Credit: Gizmodo)

Updated at 4:09 a.m. PDT March 10 with new information from Dow Jones Newswire. This story was originally posted at 9:44 a.m. PDT March 9.

Take this for what you will, but the Apple rumor mill is churning with word that the company has a touch-screen Netbook in the works that will hit the market in time for back-to-school sales later this year.

Citing an article by the Chinese-language Commercial Times, DigiTimes reported Monday that "Taiwan-based Wintek will supply touch panels for Apple's new Netbook, and shipments will start in the third quarter this year." DigiTimes also claimed that Quanta Computer will manufacture the new device.

Now Dow Jones Newswire has posted an updated story that expands on the DigiTimes report. "The mini laptop computers will likely have monitor screens that are between 9.7-inches and 10-inches," an unnamed source told Dow Jones. Another person added, "Other specifications and functions are still under evaluation." The report also claimed Wintek would make the touch-screen displays and Quanta would assemble the new computers.

Chiming in on the rumor, Engadget posted a mock-up of an Apple Netbook that has a keyboard. Meanwhile, Silicon Alley Reporter stuck with its earlier speculation that Apple will simply do a larger version of the iPod Touch (it's calling the device the iPod Touch HD).

Personally, I'd rather see Apple go with a more straightforward Netbook approach that simply adds some Apple design flair to 10-inch Netbooks already on the market, with three models ranging in price from $599-$799.

Of course, Apple could just bring the price down on the MacBook Air and indeed bulk up the iPod Touch to differentiate its "Netbook" from other Netbooks already flooding the market.

Thoughts?

Originally posted at Crave
Hunkered down in New York City, Executive Editor David Carnoy covers the gamut of gadgets and writes his Fully Equipped column, which carries the tag line "The electronics you lust for." He's also the author of "Knife Music," a novel. E-mail David. Follow David on Twitter.
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by ImNikos March 9, 2009 10:34 AM PDT
I am a Mac lover! I think that Apple should not make a netbook like this.. I would prefer a cheaper MacBook Air than a touch screen netbook (A bigger iPod Touch).. It is too early for this.. Let's wait..
Reply to this comment
by XiroMisho March 9, 2009 12:18 PM PDT
Why.... why would you want a macbook air? Why would you WANT a 1,500 dollar netbook? ...seriously, why? As a work of art it's lovely, as a functional computer it's... it's.... GAHH!! Road Warrior is target market - Battery sealed - shot target market in foot - ::kills rant:: @_@;;

now... a Giant iTouch, or ITouch... that would actually not only be cool, but innovative, it would fit perfectly into their current line-up of iTouch and iPhone, and they could even throw in the option to have a mini-PCIe port in there with sim-card slot so you could use the thing as a replacement iPhone (Wtih the headphones of course...). That, I feel, would be a very interesting idea, an 8" to 10" touch screen Netbook - would cost roughly 499 to 699 but at least it's innovative and useful enough to be worth the cost.

Problem is... it's too good an idea. They'll never do it (Prove me wrong Apple and I'll buy two.)
by bfaulk360 March 9, 2009 2:50 PM PDT
@XiroMisho Why are you insulting ImNikos for wanting a MacBook Air? You realize he said if it was cheaper? That would indicate that he doesn't want it at the current price point. Good one XiroMisho. Good one.
by Jsmith018 March 9, 2009 4:46 PM PDT
@XiroMisho
first, read peoples comments before bashing them. He said a cheaper Macbook air. Second, a larger itouch would not be in the price range you made up. Its a decent idea but going against the philosophy of netbooks which is to make them cheap.
by pcfish March 9, 2009 8:39 PM PDT
@XiroMisho
You don't get it, do you? As road warrior, I want to travel light, Macbook Air is a functional computer than can be put inside a folder. I don't have room for spare batteries, If I bring extra batteries, I might as well bring a larger laptop.
by ncalishome March 9, 2009 10:52 PM PDT
@pcfish What types of "road warrior" activities do you engage in? I'm trying not to sound rude so please don't get me wrong... There obviously is no straightforward definition for a road warrior, but those I know that I think fit the bill could not get by on a MacBook Air. And I imagine XiroMisho's definition (as much as he needs to chill out) is probably a lot closer to mine.
by Firehazel March 10, 2009 7:34 PM PDT
i think they should just make their own Apple Netbook. 10 inch screen, 1GB Ram, OSX Leopard, Intel Atom, 160GB Hard Drive, for like $500- 600. basic, and makes people happy. i personally would prefer something along the lines of the Archos 5 Series, minus the hard drive.
by richosad March 23, 2009 2:30 PM PDT
I would LOVE to get such a device provided it's got the battery that works at least 12 hours. My iPhone is great but it's screen is to small for long reading on the other hand even macbook air is to bulky and running out of battery to quickly. I travel a lot and this would be my best companion (together with iPhone)
by kaiusK March 9, 2009 10:46 AM PDT
Yo, everybody. It should be called iPad. That would be perfect, right?
Reply to this comment
by alexacker March 9, 2009 11:39 AM PDT
iNet?
by BryanMG March 9, 2009 12:49 PM PDT
iSuck?
by fleurya March 9, 2009 1:19 PM PDT
yeah you do!
by streamline35 March 9, 2009 7:31 PM PDT
iWont be able to type without a real keyboard?
by abundantsnotbob March 9, 2009 9:36 PM PDT
look up "Apple iPad" on YouTube. There was a skit by Mad TV that it was a tampon.
by srleeplus3377 March 10, 2009 7:25 AM PDT
IWANT it NOWWWW
by wired_x March 11, 2009 7:31 AM PDT
They'll display that right next to the tamPODs
by tcr071 March 9, 2009 10:48 AM PDT
The chances of this happening are within the 0 to 1% range and even IF it did launch it would not be classified as a netbook because it would NOT be in the netbook price range. Apple won't make a cheap notebook but I'm to believe they will make a cheap TOUCH SCREEN? No way. In order to do that they would have to cut back on their 30% margin which we all know won't happen.
Reply to this comment
by fondy March 10, 2009 6:33 AM PDT
My thoughts exactly. I mean, just look at how much they charge for the Mac Mini. That's basically nothing more than a NetTop. Also, how could they sell a reasonably priced netbook without hurting sales of the iPhone/Touch and/or the Macbook lineup?
by Notoapplefanbois March 10, 2009 10:47 AM PDT
So, who wants a guess on the 2009 model costing $1399 and being powered by a intel core 2 solo specifically developed for this which runs at 800mhz with 128kb of cache. Then apple selling them with 256mb or 512mb of ram. They'll also have a WVGA touchscreen and run mac os x. There will be millions of people who buy them.

Then for the 2010 model.... NVidia CPU at 810mhz with 194kb of cache. 768mb or 1gb of ram and a 1024x600 touchscreen while every other netbook now has a 1920x1080 touchscreen. They will also be running mac os XI and come with nvidia tegra graphics. They will sell for $1449 but even more people will buy them.
by Seaspray0 March 11, 2009 9:01 AM PDT
Actually, you can't judge much because David Carnoy did not release any specs. We can only go by what we see in the picture. My impression? First, it reminds me of the old PDA's in design. Typing isn't going to be easy. The old palm had a foldout keyboard you could plug in to try and overcome that obstacle (accessories?). I can see the keyboard as the weakest link (display second). The strongest link will be the size. You can't put a netbook into your pocket... this you probably can. What will tell even more would be the cpu/mem/hdd specs (David, where's the specs?). Will the specs work well or will they be too much/little? Too little on the specs, and you're no better than a smartphone. Too much power will leave you wishing you have a better keybaord/display (i.e. standard netbooks available now).
by pcfish March 11, 2009 6:10 PM PDT
@ bonesbautista

The finger-slide is probably the best iPhone tip I have heard ever! Thanks.
by michaelportent March 9, 2009 11:14 AM PDT
I'll believe it when I see it. Also, if it doesn't cost $1,200, I'll be surprised - which would mean lumping it in with netbooks would hardly be apt.
Reply to this comment
by seven7dust March 9, 2009 11:26 AM PDT
This is wat I was hoping for !
a portable touchscreen with Iphone like UI will be perfect
but all the Software and Apps needs to be re-written
I wonder how they'll address these problems
I hope they don't pull a Microcrap by using a mouse based UI and adding a touchscreen to it !
Reply to this comment
by tcr071 March 9, 2009 11:33 AM PDT
Yeah. I hope they go 100% touch and don't even allow a mouse. Everyone knows how easy it is to type out long emails or do word processing with a touch screen... oh wait...
by seven7dust March 9, 2009 12:14 PM PDT
thats wat people said about the Iphone too if I remember Correctly
although I agree that a touchscreen only computer
may not be the best option !
but I think Apple definitely has something up their sleeve !
I'm pretty sure that it'll be a hell of a lot better than MS's lame attempt !
by pcfish March 9, 2009 8:43 PM PDT
@tcr071
I bet there are plenty of people out there that can type on an iPhone faster than you type on your favorite keyboard.
by tcr071 March 9, 2009 11:28 PM PDT
Yeah. That is what people said about the iPhone and that is why big business has yet to adopt it as their mobile phone of choice.

Ever seen Microsoft Surface? That is Microsoft's attempt at multi-touch and it works pretty damn well. In fact it packs a hell of a lot more features than Apple's attempt a multi-touch and it did several years before the iPhone was released or a twinkle in Steve Jobs eyes. When they design a PERSONAL COMPUTER they design it to work with a mouse and keyboard because that is what the vast majority of its users use.

And I can 100% guarantee there is not a single person in the world that can type as fast on their iPhone as I can type on my keyboard. Not one single person. Not only because it is humanly impossible for your thumbs to crank out accurate typing on such a small screen at speeds of 70+ GWAM but because the iPhone lacks the processing power to input characters that quickly and accurately. I encourage you, if you own an iPhone, to type as fast as you can on the device and watch the characters lag in front of your eyes.

I own a damn iPhone. To type a period you have to press.?123 button, hit the period, then hit the ABC button again. Same thing goes for a comma. Where is the tab? Quotations marks? Other symbols? Ah yes they are deep within another menu. How quick and efficient that must be!
by seven7dust March 10, 2009 5:05 AM PDT
@tcr072
I agree keyboards r never going to be replaced by touchscreens !
but microsoft surface ? seriously
now thats wat I meant by lame attempt !
it looks cool but in reality it's just a gimmick and obviously is not efficient way of using a computer !
now lets look at all the tablets , another terrible attempt at touchscreen UI
and now they introduced Windows 7 another failing attempt
wat MS doesn't understand is that just adding multi-touch and a touchscreen
isn't going to help in n e way possible,
they need to re-design the entire UI not just add a few things here and there
much like the Iphone
but they r lazy and not motivated enough to do it,
look at WinMo 6.5 ? it's yet another pathetic attempt !
a honeycomb main menu ? now thats just retarded !
by carlitos92 March 10, 2009 5:49 AM PDT
@tcr071:
No, actually, to type a "period" on an iPhone, you can hit the spacebar twice. It's a real beating.

Anyway, this is missing the point. The iPhone nested keyboards are limited by screen real eastate. If the device was twice the size (much less 6-8 times the size) like a netbook, this would not be an issue, and you would get your full QWERTY setup replete with punctuation.
by Tbdsamman March 10, 2009 6:48 AM PDT
@carlitos92

Why did you put "quotes" around the "word" period? It's a ******* word.

And it doesn't matter how big a touch keyboard is, it will never beat a physical keyboard. People achieve these high WPM rates by learning where the keys are and don't look and just type. Learning where the keys are would be difficult if not impossible if there is no feel to them.

And I would wish anyone seriously typing on a giant iPod Touch/iPhone the best of health and medical care. You either prop it up and have horrible hand posture or leave it flat down and have horrible back and neck posture.
by tcr071 March 10, 2009 8:32 AM PDT
Wow. A gimmick? BMW is using it in their auto dealerships to show cars and there are many high end restaurants, hotels, casinos, etc that use them as well. Just because you can't comprehend or understand a technology and it isn't made by Apple doesn't make it a gimmick. The surface can detect 20+ inputs simultaneously and accurately. You only WISH you could have that as your kitchen table.

Have you ever used a tablet? I'll answer it for you, NO. You have no idea what features a tablet packs and why people prefer to use it. You can MARK UP documents, sign real estate forms or any other form ON THE GO, sign emails, annotate a powerpoint, grade term papers, surf the web, write, do mathematical equations, etc. A tablet has A TON of functionality but, again, because there are no tablets from Apple it is a "gimmick." You realize that the iPhone OS is a variant of the Mac OS X???

What YOU don't understand is that there is a very small market for touch screen devices. Why in the world would Microsoft spend time building an entire operating system just for touch screen devices? They won't and shouldn't. Instead they will release an operating system designed to be used with BOTH which is what they did with Windows XP Tablet Edition, Windows Vista, and they have gone even further with Windows 7. If you had an ounce of knowledge about any of this you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements but alas this too will fall on deaf ears. You are absolutely out of your mind if you think Apple is going to release a touchscreen netbook with an entire operating system designed around it, oh wait they will it is called OS X 10.5.
by bonesbautista March 10, 2009 10:28 AM PDT
@tcr071, just a hint. To get at any of the symbols on the numeric/punctuation screen, don't tap. Press and hold the "123" button and slide your finger to the character your want - it pops up, then let your finger off the screen and you're left with the punctuation character you want and you're automatically returned to the text keyboard.
by Seaspray0 March 10, 2009 12:47 PM PDT
seven7dust, how much does apple pay you to troll? Every one of your posts is identical. The typical seven7dust post: Anything apple is $uperior and everything else is lame, retarded, stupid. You are so blindsided by branding, you have no clue what is or isn't good.
See more comment replies
by thstai March 9, 2009 11:27 AM PDT
Real men do not netbook. Not interested in a princess phone, diet soda, filtered cigarette, lite beer, or decaf frapachino. Also do not care to redesign web pages smaller or to reduce resolutions and palette of available colors to placate the users of smaller screens. Real men do not netbook.
Reply to this comment
by John_Johnson March 9, 2009 1:25 PM PDT
Real men make broad, misguided, unfounded statements to convince themselves of their manhood which is questioned daily by nearly every person the encounter.
by rtdunham--2008 March 9, 2009 5:06 PM PDT
You keep hanging on to those distinctions that affirm your manhood!

(yeah, actually i'm thinking--no, hoping--that you're just kidding)
by terminalblue March 10, 2009 8:35 AM PDT
<highfive>thstai</highfive>

real men dont use "green" laptops either, we just hook 'em up to your balls and power our laptops that way.
by rapier1 March 9, 2009 11:33 AM PDT
Its going to be a keyboardless touch device. Like a tablet PC the size of a steno pad. No, I'm really not making it up.
Reply to this comment
by ace10134 March 9, 2009 3:16 PM PDT
yea it's apple. they dont care if it's functional, only if it looks cool. therefore, keyboard's out of the picture.
by Perry_Clease March 9, 2009 4:08 PM PDT
I have been thinking something similar. A keyboard like the one on an iPhone, a touch screen with no physical keys, plus a monitor.
by hslakaal March 10, 2009 4:28 AM PDT
yea...I agree...there has to be that apple "cool" factor and I think a keyboard wouldn't fit that image...
by Notoapplefanbois March 10, 2009 12:50 PM PDT
You just described the ai touch book.

and thats $299, now, microsoft, are you releasing a version of windows 7 for ARM or not?
by sammydolla March 9, 2009 12:43 PM PDT
I would be more inclined to buy an ipod touch than buy an "ipad" (i like the name kaiusK). What is this nonesense about Microsoft making a mouse UI with a touchscreen being stupid? Is it stupid because Apple didn't do it first? I use Apple products because I feel they are more sound, not because I hate Microsoft. There is no way that including multi-touch into a OS is a bad idea. Windows seven includes several gestures and enhancements that were engineered to be compatible with touch. Jump lists, a larger taskbar, and built in cut, paste and copy gestures in the onscreen keyboard. I conceed that some buttons in the OS are far too small for big fingers, but I guess thats why the computer still has a mouse. Lets also keep in mind that the Windows 7 we are familiar with doesn't even come with multi-touch (unless you patch the feature). It is safe to say microsoft kept the feature out of the release because it was working on more gestures that would enhance the user experience.
Reply to this comment
by Dalkorian March 10, 2009 8:54 AM PDT
Funny, I thought prostitution was illegal.
by pithenumber March 9, 2009 1:00 PM PDT
lets hope it has copy/paste
Reply to this comment
by fleurya March 9, 2009 1:24 PM PDT
priceless
by ace10134 March 9, 2009 3:19 PM PDT
Hah, you mean a thing us WinMo users have had and enjoyed for about 5 years?

No, they won't do copy/paste.

They'll do iCut and iPaste. It's where you personally switch back and forth between the two pages and write the information down yourself.
by ncalishome March 9, 2009 10:32 PM PDT
I laughed at iCut and iPaste...

Perhaps it could work as it should, but must be purchased separately at the app store for $1.99 each :P
by Shaun822 March 10, 2009 9:36 AM PDT
I would certainly hope it has cut and paste if it going to be a computer replacement. Silly of Apple for including it in the iPhone and iPod Touch.
by John_Johnson March 9, 2009 1:29 PM PDT
Let's do a quick poll: Of all the people that posted here, how many of you looked at your keyboard while you typed? If you did not, how can you possibly thing that a touch keyboard will be acceptable for word processing or even web surfing? Hell, I think Apple's touch tech is great and I really do like my iPhone, but I just don't believe that a competent computer user would be satisfied with one of these for all of the inconvenience it would cause while typing.
Reply to this comment
by ncalishome March 9, 2009 10:46 PM PDT
I type like a madman and rarely look at my keyboard. I also have largish hands which makes most PDA/smartphone/whateva keyboards difficult, touchscreen or not. A touchscreen keyboard this size I do not think would be a problem though. Obviously this is a mock up so we can only get a general sense of the size, but if it's anything like in the pic I don't think it would take long to get used to it. I would not buy one of these for word processing, but looks pretty great for what I want in a netbook class device.
by tcr071 March 9, 2009 11:31 PM PDT
You do realize that this a very small screen and even if the device was absolutely massive the on-screen keyboard would be no larger than a standard keyboard?
by Shaun822 March 10, 2009 9:41 AM PDT
One of the keys to having a tablet computer is that it isn't intended to be an everyday item. When I was working at a cabinet distributor back in high school the owners and some of the higher end sales reps all had desktops in their offices, laptop/notebooks for going to out of town conferences, meetings, etc. and they had a couple of tablets for the company so that if someone went out to customer's house to make sales and plans on the road they could. Tablets shouldn't be a complete replacement to a desktop or notebook unless they are a convertable tablet with a full keyboard.
by carlitos92 March 11, 2009 6:00 PM PDT
Competent computer users can use a competent computer to do their competent computing. But they might still want a netbook to jack around with. A netbook where it's not a nuisance to look at the screen and virtual keyboard simultaneously (hmmm, like on a touchscreen) might be okay. Give it a chance.
by photog_7 March 9, 2009 1:29 PM PDT
I won't buy it if it doesn't have a keyboard. Typing on my iPhone is torture enough for me. (It probably won't have cut and paste, either! :-) I'm very happy with my MacBook Air, although I admit they are over-priced.
Reply to this comment
by SuPaGrAm March 9, 2009 1:42 PM PDT
Even without the apple tax this thing would cost a lot... I'm thinkin its gonna be in Sony's to-stylish-to-be-a-netbook category and cost around $1200
Reply to this comment
by kingrah1 March 9, 2009 1:53 PM PDT
FAKE! theres no firewire or charger! plus, apple would never make something as crappy as a netbook, but a touchscreen tablet is not unthinkable.
Reply to this comment
by ace10134 March 9, 2009 3:22 PM PDT
Didn't Apple ditch Firewire on their latest notebooks?

And netbooks are crappy? Right...

And now a touchscreen tablet is thinkable. I bet before you heard that Apple might make one, you were thinking that the Windows tablets were useless and unthinkable.
by rapier1 March 9, 2009 4:56 PM PDT
Did you miss the part on the picture that said it was concept art?
by Tbdsamman March 10, 2009 6:52 AM PDT
@ace10134

I think he meant Apple's netbook would be crappy. It would come with half the hardware and cost four times as much. And the battery life would suck with the big Apple bat sign, but hey, it's Apple so it will sell.
by Ferd234234234234 March 9, 2009 1:56 PM PDT
When I type, I always hold my keyboard in front of my monitor in order to hide half my screen with it. It's how I like my clean usable UI that make my computing experience such a charm; only using half what I can for twice the price.
Reply to this comment
by pithenumber March 9, 2009 2:10 PM PDT
I hope your being sarcastic
by ace10134 March 9, 2009 3:23 PM PDT
Hey, me too!!

(We need a html code thing for sarcasm)
by coulterboyz March 9, 2009 4:48 PM PDT
Of course he is, don't be stupid.
by random truth March 9, 2009 6:24 PM PDT
@ace10134
[sarcasm]i got it[/sarcasm]
[red]Now all cnet needs to do is implement bbcodes[/red]
by BlitzBoy1120 March 9, 2009 2:18 PM PDT
Wouldn't that be awkward to hold and type with if it's just one screen? The only way to type would to have a flat surface to put it on, and if you're on let's say a train then you would have to out it on your lap (at least according to that design shown). Otherwise, it would be a cool idea.
Reply to this comment
by xraydude March 9, 2009 2:34 PM PDT
What if it was a clamshell style, but when folded open gave you a 16:9 layout with the two halves(touchscreens) meeting in the middle. It could be 3"x4" and fold out to 6"x4". The "touch" keyboard would be plenty big for two thumb typing and still retain multitouch and swiping movements. Hell, I'd buy one right now.
Reply to this comment
by butchlajuan March 9, 2009 2:43 PM PDT
ill stick w/ my ibook
Reply to this comment
by ace10134 March 9, 2009 3:23 PM PDT
I'll stick with Windows 7 tablet pc's.
by edtechlab March 9, 2009 3:15 PM PDT
I would love one at a lower price point. Can Apple do it? Does it want to?
Reply to this comment
by homercles82 March 10, 2009 6:07 AM PDT
No and no.

Apple's business model has been create a cool product that "borrows" from other technology, mildly enhance it, make it looks snazzy hiding any flaws in it then sell it for $500 to $1000 more than similar items thus creating a false idea that the item is premium therefore the best on the market.
by heulenwolf March 9, 2009 4:36 PM PDT
Wow, what a bad idea. I certainly hope this is no more than rumor. Why would somebody want a device with smartphone-like features in a notebook form factor? Unlike MS, Apple makes its money on hardware and isn't incentivized to get its OS on every platform out there. If it has a full-sized QWERTY keyboard, then a user needs to set it down flat to type efficiently. Smartphone keyboards work because you can type fast enough with your thumbs while holding the device up with your fingers where you can see it. Using this imagined beast would be painful and would lead to lots of dropped devices. A large glass screen and lots of drops simply don't go together.

Nice try, Engadget. Just because you can Photoshop something together with a nifty faded reflection as in Apple's GUIs doesn't make it real. Apple may, indeed, be working on something small and nifty, but if anyone approves selling your mocked-up device, they will be changing careers soon.
Reply to this comment
by Dalkorian March 10, 2009 9:00 AM PDT
I think this is the first comment that read like there was thought put into it instead of being a simple monkey-flinging-feces contest. And I agree - snazzy as this looks, it would be a bad idea all around.
by big.mouth March 10, 2009 9:43 AM PDT
This is a shockingly bad comment. I can't tell you how many times I've wished I could just remove the tiny physical keyboard on my little Fujitsu Lifebook and just use the touchscreen. It's easy to type using one hand while you hold the tablet with the other. And, if you need a larger keyboard, you can simply pair one using bluetooth or USB.
by john94857 March 9, 2009 5:06 PM PDT
It's easy to see why the rumors don't go away. Apple's iTune store gives it the infrastructure and and setup to easily get into the market. In addition, the touchscreen that made iPod/iPhone popular is very suitable for an ebook device. Combining the two makes it fairly ideal for Apple to enter this market.


I am very interested in Kindle and other ebooks, but am still waiting for these books to be DRM free. It's just so much easier and "thought-free" when I don't have to worry about DRM and how I use something. The higher the resolution, the better it is too. We are nowhere near true 300-dpi but that's a technical limitation at this point.


Speaking of DRM-free, Amazon does have an awesome MP3 store that is DRM-free with a large selection and often good prices. It would be nice if they had the same thing with books. On the note about Amazon, I recently came across an interesting table that details the discounts on Amazon.


Maybe someone will find it useful too. It is at http://www.uberi.com


This ebook space is heating up. It is very exciting!
Reply to this comment
by Dalkorian March 10, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
Prostituting for Amazon, spamming your website - are there ANY redeeming qualities to your post?
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