Apple and the Nvidia 'problem'
Nvidia is again at the center of a graphics tempest in the media, this time surrounding performance issues of Apple's new 17-inch MacBook Pro. Two little pesky questions haven't been answered yet, however. Are Nvidia graphics chips really the problem? And are the issues really that widespread?
Postings in an Apple discussion forum cite a smorgasbord of problems: Some cite the Nvidia GeForce 9600M, while others point to issues with fan speed. Another post points to faulty wiring and another to the main processor (i.e., Intel). But this is just one forum. Does this really indicate widespread problems?
Does the Apple MacBook Pro 17-inch unibody have chip issues?
(Credit: Apple)I haven't heard back from Apple. Nvidia had no comment Monday.
So, I spoke with a few people who have informed insights into potential problems. Not all would speak on the record, however. Jon Peddie of Tiburon, Calif.-based Jon Peddie Research, which tracks the graphics chip market and does testing on graphics chips, said he hasn't tested the new MacBook Pro yet. Generally speaking, however, a GPU problem of this sort would dictate a BIOS change to adjust the fan speed (one of the possible solutions proposed already). Or, if it's more serious, the graphics board would need to be replaced. (BIOS stands for basic input-output system; GPU stands for graphics processing unit; CPU stands for central processing unit.)
"If either of those conditions were true, Apple would be issuing an alert," he said. The alternative is for Apple to deal with the alleged problem on a piecemeal basis, one customer at a time, Peddie said.
The latter scenario--the status now--of course leads to a lot of speculation and attempted diagnoses among users.
I also contacted another analyst, Linley Gwennap, principal analyst at the The Linley Group. He made some obvious points but important in the context that it's not necessarily the GPU. Basically he said that if any chip exceeds the "thermal design budget," the system becomes unstable.
Other people I contacted (who wished to remain anonymous) said the issue appears to be more of a fan issue than a GPU issue. But the jury is still out. And, let's be clear, Nvidia has been faulted for past MacBook glitches. The most recent being in October. Will Nvidia be perpetually plagued by fallout from past problems? The 1994 Pentium FDIV bug was an Intel albatross for years.
I see another ancillary issue--not necessarily directly related to the MacBook Pro issue discussed above--that needs to be addressed. Here's the proposition: you want better graphics but you also want a sleek laptop like the Apple MacBook Pro. Well, if you're pushing the outside of the graphics-performance envelope, something's got to give. It's like saying: I want a car that goes from zero to 60 in under four seconds but with low emissions.
The truth is high-performance discrete GPUs and Intel CPUs--even the ones with the "m" (for "mobile") suffix--will sometimes wreak havoc when they're stressed inside enclosures only 1-inch high (i.e., many laptops). But I'm stating the obvious (I think). Anyone who has maxed out a relatively high-performance GPU or CPU in a laptop knows the real meaning of the euphemism "uncomfortably hot"--a phrase often used in discussion forums.
Overheating results in a lot of unpleasant (and sometimes seemingly unrelated) surprises, including BSOD (Blue Screen Of Death), automatic (arbitrary) shutdown, and, as in the case of the MacBook Pro, graphics artifacts.
Some people will always point their finger at Nvidia (or ATI) but I submit that some of those people experiencing problems would be the first to raise a stink if Nvidia didn't offer a high-performance laptop graphics chip to run Crysis at the frame rates and resolutions they demand. Yes, a product should work as advertised but there are limits to what a GPU (or CPU) can do inside the thermally challenged, cramped quarters of a laptop.
Not that Nvidia is absolved of any and all crimes. Far from it. As I stated above, Nvidia has had its share of problems that were its own fault. But even Intel's integrated graphics (theoretically the most power efficient) has heat gotchas of its own. Heat has been an issue in the first version of the Intel-graphics-based MacBook Air (when playing video)--which I can vouch for since I own a first-generation MBA. And I have another laptop (from a top-five PC maker) with integrated graphics that immediately heats up (and sometimes overheats) when running video.
But back to discrete GPUs. If you want desktop-level graphics in your sleek laptop, then you're going to have to take the heat and, consequently, in some cases--if you push the graphics card--instability and graphics anomalies. That doesn't make it right. It's just a fact of life.
Brooke Crothers has been an editor at large at CNET News, an analyst at IDC Japan, and an editor at The Asian Wall Street Journal Weekly, among other endeavors, including co-manager of an after-school math-and-reading center. He writes for the CNET Blog Network and is not a current employee of CNET. Disclosure. 
I think there's enough blame to go around for everyone on this one.
This happens most often when I am using fast user switching, and am using Delicious Library, iMovie, or capturing video using Snap Pro X.
For what it's worth, I have my MacBook Pro elevated on a open-frame wire shelf, and the room temperature has not been above 69 degrees for a couple of months.
Long story short, I sold the MacBook and bought a Thinkpad, and then bought a Mac workstation. I'm very happy with both.
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How many ways is this column wrong? Well, you're NEVER going to get the desktop level graphics in a notebook. Desktop level graphics require hundreds of watts of power and produce enough heat that they can warm up a room. A notebook is never going to get near that. Sorry.
That doesn't mean you should accept lockups and glitches. What that tells me is that the notebook vendor blew it. They didn't put enough cooling in our put too hot a GPU in the notebook.
A 9600M is hardly the hottest GPU market and plenty of notebooks can run it all day running games with no overheating issues. You can get notebooks with SLI and Crossfire that make the 9600 look like the old and slow part that it is. Those notebook are as heavy and big as a boat anchor. That's ultimately the problem isn't it?
The notebook vendor puts too many parts in a notebook that is too thin and then leaves the fans as low as possible to not annoy people.
No, this a simple case of under engineering the notebook and not anticipating the work loads that
would placed on them. This is purely the fault of the builder of the notebook and I don't see how you say that if other notebook vendors make notebooks using the same part (albeit heavier and thicker and noisier).
Please stop cheer leading the ODM/OEM of these notebooks. It's like your notebook with integrated graphics: a properly engineered notebook would handle it fine. Your notebook with integrated graphics that crashes was not and by all accounts, neither is the Mac Book Pro either it appears.
That said, I have the new 17", and I've not had any issues. In fact, the thing runs way cooler than the first generation 15" model I have. The fans run consistently at 2,000 rpm. It does seem strange that it doesn't go higher when there's more heat, but if I was really concerned about it, there are utilities that can help. Stressing it out, the CPU seems to top out around 170 degrees, and the GPU around 140, which I suspect is will within the limits of what it was designed for.
So, it is not a isolated case but a recurrent problem.
I wish Apple would stop its obsession with thinness
1) Open Safari
2) Scroll up and down
3) Notice distortion on bottom half of the screen.
LInes are not rendered properly. This was not an issue with previous graphics packages.
Do you want a laptop that stays cool or one that has the capability to go fast while looking good?
While it may go fast, you are stressing the components! If you are in a warm-ish room, they will overheat.
GeForce? GTX 260M graphics processor with GDDR3 1024MB VRAM and 12GB of memory and up to 1 TB of memory and all that in a Notebook called ASUS G71Gx. I can't belive I am saying this but maybe Apple should ask Assus for help! It looks like that Apple has no idea what to do when it comes to graphics!
Wondere if there is a no. four, also?
In the past, Apple has released firmware updates for laptops to address things like fan speed, graphics clocking, etc. It's not new, it's happened before, they will address it.
As for it being an NVidia thing, well, the iBooks had problems for years with the ATI chips losing their soldering over time. From the first iBook white to the last iBook G4, this failure mode kept happening. It didn't matter where on the board they moved the chip to. It had something to do with the mobile graphics chip not liking the heating/cooling cycles of a laptop combined with the constant micro-stresses involved with a portable computer. You'd think that a laptop chip should be able to handle it...
- by AppleSuxLeo March 10, 2009 12:14 PM PDT
- Apple=overpriced products with everyday Chinese quality. Windows 7 FTW !
- Reply to this comment
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- by random truth March 10, 2009 9:58 PM PDT
- AppleSuxLeo = Another tool FTW!
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