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August 18, 2008 3:33 PM PDT

Music, movie lobbyists push to spy on your Net traffic

by Declan McCullagh
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Shira Perlmutter of the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, an RIAA affiliate, talks up the benefits for broadband providers of policing users' online activities. The MPAA's Michael O'Leary is third from left.

(Credit: Declan McCullagh/News.com)

ASPEN, Colo.--Recording industry and motion picture lobbyists are renewing their push to convince broadband providers to monitor customers and detect copyright infringements, claiming the concept is working abroad and should be adopted in the United States.

A representative of the recording industry said on Monday that her companies would prefer to enter into voluntary "partnerships" with Internet service providers, but pointedly noted that some governments are mandating such surveillance "if you don't work something out."

"Despite our best efforts, we can't do this alone," said Shira Perlmutter, a vice president for global legal policy at the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry. "We need the help of ISPs. They have the technical ability to manage the flow over their pipes...The good news is that we're beginning to see some of these solutions emerge, in particular in Europe and Asia." (IFPI is the Recording Industry Association of America's international affiliate.)

During a discussion at the Progress and Freedom Foundation's technology policy conference here, Perlmutter said one filtering solution would involve identifying particular files that are (or are not) permitted to be sent to particular destinations. That would be a "very tailored approach," she said.

The idea isn't exactly new: the Motion Picture Association of America said nearly a year ago that ISPs should police piracy, and one of its member companies asked federal regulators to make this a requirement. AT&T said in January that it's testing technology that would let it become a copyright network cop, and the MPAA subsequently suggested that piracy-prone users should have their accounts terminated because they're "hogging the bandwidth."

In a statement sent to CNET News on Monday, an AT&T spokesman said: "There is nothing inherently wrong with P2P applications, which are legal technologies that are used and welcomed on our network. We have consistently said that AT&T will not become an enforcement agent on the Internet, nor will we inhibit the ability of our customers to access any legal content they want."

Not one of multiple AT&T representatives we contacted responded to our followup question, which was: "Can you confirm that AT&T is not monitoring and has no plans to monitor its customers' traffic or other online activities to detect possible copyright infringements?"

(What's a little odd is that the conference organizers said they couldn't find any broadband provider representatives to participate in the panel discussion--even though Jeff Brueggeman, AT&T's vice president for regulatory planning and policy, was listed as attending the event, and executives from Comcast and Verizon were sitting, silently, in the audience.)

Also at the conference on Monday, IFPI's Perlmutter rattled off a list of countries that have taken at least some steps toward antipiracy filtering, through laws enacted by the legislature or other means: France, South Korea, New Zealand, Belgium, and Australia. In addition, Canada's copyright lobby has pushed for legally-mandated filtering.

In the U.S., she said, referring to broadband providers, "increasingly they will be partnering with us--they will be doing deals with us."

"Despite our best efforts, we can't do this alone. We need the help of ISPs. They have the technical ability to manage the flow over their pipes...The good news is that we're beginning to see some of these solutions emerge, in particular in Europe and Asia."
--Shira Perlmutter, International Federation of the Phonographic Industry

Michael O'Leary, a senior vice president at the Motion Picture Association of America, said the relationship between content companies and broadband providers had become less adversarial than before and both sides had left the "us against them era" behind. (This was probably a reference to the political trench warfare that led Verizon to reject the RIAA's request to identify a subscriber and the fuss over one proposal in Congress to implant anticopying technology into consumer devices.)

O'Leary welcomed what he described as today's "multifaceted approach that involves working effectively with the ISPs and universities."

MovieLabs did conduct tests last year of about a dozen "digital fingerprinting" technologies from companies such as Gracenote, Vobile, and Audible Magic. Certain products worked well in some environments, like on user-generated Web sites and on university networks, MovieLabs' chief executive told us in January. But that's not the same as saying it'll work well for tens of millions of AT&T, Comcast, and Verizon subscribers.

Even if the content industry can sign deals with broadband providers, there are still a slew of unanswered questions--including ones about customers' privacy and how filtering will work in practice. Will piratical transfers be automatically interrupted? Or just slowed? Will piracy-prone users merely find--this is what the IFPI suggests--their accounts suspended? How to detect whether content is licensed, or protected by fair use rights, which vary based on the situation? What if the transfer is encrypted?

Looking ahead a few years from now, the content industry may not be satisfied with voluntary agreements. Let's say that AT&T and some of its larger rivals start to filter pirated material and demonstrate (at least to a first approximation) that it's possible, but one ISP does not. Look for the RIAA and MPAA and their political allies to ask Congress for a law that would transform theretofore "voluntary" agreements into mandatory ones.

CNET News reporter Marguerite Reardon contributed to this report

Declan McCullagh, CNET News' chief political correspondent, chronicles the intersection of politics and technology. He has covered politics, technology, and Washington, D.C., for more than a decade, which has turned him into an iconoclast and a skeptic of anyone who says, "We oughta have a new federal law against this." E-mail Declan.
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Add a Comment (Log in or register) Showing 1 of 4 pages (100 Comments)
by Blancho August 18, 2008 4:17 PM PDT
This is ridiculous and completely against the constitution.
Reply to this comment
by Lerianis August 18, 2008 5:57 PM PDT
Yes, it is. But unfortunately, Hollywood companies have a habit of wanting to not abide by the Constitution and it's protections against 'unreasonable searches and seizures'.... which was meant to apply to both the police AND regular citizens coming in and searching someone's home without their permission.
by paid-surveys June 4, 2009 1:52 PM PDT
Yes Blancho, I agree with you. But we can not do much in this regard. We need to be more concerned now.

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by mersi-zen June 12, 2009 4:04 AM PDT
I agree. I mean OK people are doing the wrong thing but come on..spying?! You know they are trying to stop one wrong doing by committing another - invading our privacy?
also, how do they intend to monitor whole of US

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by richel08 July 2, 2009 9:15 PM PDT
I think for now it would be impossible to implement this all over the world..
I hope they will come up with the much better alternative for this surveillance issue.
by gardeningabc September 12, 2009 7:05 AM PDT
Blancho, i totally agree with you. This is totally against the privacy laws that took us so many years to get. Are we returning to the past?
by patricidy6r September 16, 2009 5:40 PM PDT
>>This is ridiculous and completely against the constitution.

You can say that again! ;) But since when did these Hollywood honchos abide by the "constitution" anyway? :P
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by huntwithmojo August 18, 2008 4:25 PM PDT
If Comcast starts monitoring my internet usage I will cancel my account IMMEDIATELY! (Or as soon as I find another ISP, lol) ISPs take note: Your subscribers will leave in droves if you partner with the MPAA or RIAA.
Reply to this comment
by rk2469 August 20, 2008 10:02 AM PDT
comcast already monitors the network usage, an old news. you should leave comcast now...
by everwanted2 August 20, 2008 12:33 PM PDT
Actually, it would pretty much suck if all of the ISP's started doing it at the same time, then where woud you go... I KNOW! proxies, use them when you can.
by nflpredictions August 27, 2009 2:54 PM PDT
The problem is we will never know who monitors what, google already stores info on its users to better serve ads, we dont know who will be able to acces this information in the future or now.

comcast already monitors looking for p2p downloads, things that slow down the system
by mwsmith824 August 18, 2008 4:29 PM PDT
It's a slippery slope. If you monitor the connections looking for pirated songs and movies, why can't you monitor it for other prohibited items. In some parts of Europe there are things you can't publish, why can't you filter that out, or perhaps someone downloaded child pornography over the AT&T network, you can block that copy of Transformers, why didn't you stop that too? Are you no longer a common carrier then? Do you lose your immunity for what happens over your network? I think the studios are begging for you to implement filtering because then anything the provider lets thru, they're liable for. And I think AT&T has far deeper pockets than the Joe Teenager downloading the new Kid Rock cd.
Reply to this comment
by nflpredictions August 27, 2009 3:05 PM PDT
It is a slippery slope, but if the look for people that are planning to do harm to others it is a good thing, it is a balancing effort to not give up too many freedoms for the safety of others.

If I need to be monitored so we can prevent another 9/11 so be it
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by Pete Bardo August 18, 2008 4:32 PM PDT
Keep your spies off my network! If RIAA and IFPI can't figure out how to protect their property, please don't ask me to do it for them! Laws that can't be enforced need to be re-written or repealed. Creating a population in which all citizens are required to spy on their neighbors is not in our best interests--whether those citizens are individuals or corporations.
Reply to this comment
by rk2469 August 20, 2008 10:05 AM PDT
Don't you love when hollywierds have to make, too. They have to pay out these limousine Obama activists movie appearances. Top 100 celebrities made about $ 4 billion last year. They only read scripts and look pretty. Don't you love this popular culture.
by msmith0791 August 30, 2009 8:59 PM PDT
Absolutely right Pete. There is no way I am going to spy on my friends and neighbors. People don't behave that way.

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by CyR00k August 18, 2008 4:40 PM PDT
Did I miss the point in history where the RIAA and MPAA became deputized federal law enforcement agencies?

If someone steals something from me I have no authority to try and recover it from that person, even when I know who the thief is. In fact, if I try to retrieve said property on my own I can be arrested for it. Why do the RIAA and MPAA believe that they have this kind of authority?
Reply to this comment
by Renegade Knight August 25, 2008 7:23 AM PDT
If you look at history the police are relativly new. In the days of old, we had laws but the only way to enforce them was to use your own forces or hire guns. The Pinkertons being a famouse example. The RIAA and MPAA have been doing exactly that for a long time since they won't be able to get the police involved in a case involving a 99 cent song any more than I can as a citizen for someone who cut a boquet out of my prize winning and (and registreed thus being IP) roses.
by Imalittleteapot August 18, 2008 5:16 PM PDT
Why would they say it's working abroad to argue for it here in America when it isn't actually working abroad? File sharing still takes place everywhere. ISP spying hasn't stopped anything, but they make the claim it has? Why? If you know enough about technology you'll quickly realize that this method will not stop piracy.

So I have to question. Why do these people want to implement spying? It was the same with DRM. Everyone including the RIAA and MPAA know that neither DRM or spying will stop piracy or even slow it down enough to matter, but the RIAA and MPAA continue to argue that they need those technologies to stop piracy? It doesn't make any sense. Is it just so they have a feeling of control?

It's almost like the war on drugs where the government knows the war on drugs doesn't do anything to stop drug use and has only made the situation worse, but they continue to argue we need the war on drugs.

Why this logic? What else is going on here?
Reply to this comment
by ferricoxide August 18, 2008 5:54 PM PDT
Why would they say it's working abroad? Because if you say something enough, someone's likely to believe you.
by Imalittleteapot August 18, 2008 9:04 PM PDT
How I wish that wasn't true.

I still just can't grasp why they would spend all this money to convince people to do something to stop piracy when it doesn't actually stop piracy. For the ISPs the motivation is targeted advertising maybe, but for the MPAA and RIAA it seems like a waste of time.

It won't stop piracy. The only thing I can imagine is so they could track piracy, and then say see see, look how much piracy there is to try and get more oppressive laws passed. I really don't understand why they want all this control though because oppression really isn't that profitable in the long run. Is it?

It's like the Darth Vader phenomenon. The more tightly they grasp for control the more money that slips through their fingers. Have they become so greedy that they're less concerned with making money than they are with how they are making their money? They'd rather lose money and have customers hate them their way instead of making money some other way. I've seen this from companies before, but I will never understand it.

I don't file share, but friends still do. I hate to break it to the MPAA and RIAA but they're still behind. At first it was more convenient, but with all the laws, DRM, throttled bandwidth, and the fact that movies take forever the net has just become another source. Many people I know have just taken up swapping terabyte hard drives with each other in the privacy of their own homes, or even mailing DVDs out to far away friends. Back to the old ways, but with new technology. There is no control for these organizations to find. They simply chase the pirates out of one shadow into another.
by njsid August 18, 2008 5:41 PM PDT
the same people have made us pay for 78s,45,8 track,cd,dvds and so on never offiring a discount if you had the old format.movies used to be only in movies the is now profit,dvds,pay for view hbo, reg tv export
all new profict
Reply to this comment
by gsmiller88 August 18, 2008 5:49 PM PDT
So basically they're giving ISP's the option of voluntarily cooperating or using their legal might to force them to cooperate. I'll allow the RIAA and MPAA to monitor my internet usage, if they allow me to return every single CD and DVD/VHS that I have purchased in the past and no longer listen to/watch for a full refund.
Reply to this comment
by grinningevild August 18, 2008 5:53 PM PDT
Aren't we lagging behind far enough already compared to the rest of the world in broadband deployment?
Reply to this comment
by rk2469 August 20, 2008 10:06 AM PDT
No, since you have access to the internent. broadband access != "ahead"
by Michichael August 18, 2008 5:58 PM PDT
If the RIAA and MPAA keep this crap up, it will not be long at all before hackers and security specialists are coming up with ways to ensure your privacy. For example end to end encryption/decryption of all traffic. Good luck sniffing that. They don't get it and won't get it - their business model is flawed. I give then 5 more years, tops, before they are so broke that they're out of business and out of everyones hair - then we'll see an explosion of creative talent hit the internet, sold by the artists under open licensing.
Reply to this comment
by i_am_still_wade August 18, 2008 6:35 PM PDT
In any other business if you treat your customers like dirt and assume they are guilty of a crime without proof, that business would be under in days. Yet here we are with a cartel doing that exact same thing and they wonder why sales are down. So instead of blaming themselves for the slow sales, they blame piracy like the narcissist that they are.
Reply to this comment
by UITD August 18, 2008 7:40 PM PDT
**** that. I smell a lawsuit. You want to peek in my windows AND complain about what you see? **** you.
Reply to this comment
by The_Decider August 18, 2008 7:43 PM PDT
The job of enforcing copyright claims rest on the copyright holder.

Giving police powers to a corporation is a bad idea. Why is anyone even considering this?
Reply to this comment
by alv5062 August 25, 2009 6:58 AM PDT
I agree, they are trying to get around the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law">Law</a>
by hurple August 18, 2008 9:23 PM PDT
Is it 1984, yet?
Reply to this comment
by renriq02 May 7, 2009 9:09 AM PDT
not yet but looks like everything is turning around in the gov't <br /><a href="http://centuryhouse.net/">seo</a>
by renriq02 May 7, 2009 9:10 AM PDT
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by Rususeruru_ August 18, 2008 10:30 PM PDT
What's going to be funny is when ISPs get sued for cracking encrypted packets... besides ISPs won't do this for free they'll need incentive to join the RIAA and MPAA in this harebrained scheme and I'm not sure either organization has the capability to fill the communication coffers enough to warrant this on all networks.
Reply to this comment
by pauljweighell August 19, 2008 1:36 AM PDT
No surprise to see people here arguing in favour of stealing something for nothing!

If you don't want to be paid for your work then that's fine but don't force your communism on me please.

As an IP creator I am against theft of IP and if you do it then I and other IP owners are going to do whatever it takes to stop you / recover our IP / get paid for our work.

My right to be paid for my work is way more important than your 'right' to use a privacy argument to steal IP.

A court in the UK yesterday fined a person who shared a computer game on a P2P network £16,500 (about $33,000) and the company is now queuing up to do the same with about 500 others whose ISPs were court ordered to disclose details. Good move.
Reply to this comment
by Imalittleteapot August 19, 2008 2:14 AM PDT
Actually, I'm not a communist either. I have my own IP and it's been stolen by a few people. It's good to know you support this so they can track down the pirates. I also believe they have no right to privacy whatsoever to steal other people's goods. That's just simply ridiculous.

Of course, that would also mean you have no right to privacy to protect you from me wanting to know if you've stolen my IP. That makes sense right? Well anyway, what I'm going to need to do is hook up some wires to your Internet connection for a few months so I can see what kind of data is going back and forth there you see. I really need to know if you're stealing my IP. I wish I could take you at your word, but unfortunately I can't. Instead I'm just going to have to accuse you of being a thief straight away. You understand that though right? My need to protect my IP is far greater than your right to privacy so I'm sure you'll cooperate. You're a trooper and you'll take one for the team. That's what I like about you.

Also, if I could just sniff around your hard drive and the backseat of your car and your closet and under your bed for a little while, well that would really help too. What would really be great is if I could just get a few cameras installed inside/outside your home as well. I know you'd understand. I'm not saying you took any of my intellectual property. I just really really would like to get all up in your business to make sure of that. That's all I'm trying to do. You do understand that don't you?

Oh, by the way, there's probably some other folks here on CNET that wanna look around your place for some of their intellectual property too. I don't know for sure, but I heard some of them were pretty creative. :)
by Willie Winkie August 19, 2008 6:14 AM PDT
Information cannot be "owned." If the world had allowed such a thing in ancient times, someone would have patented fire. Your "right to be paid" does not supersede my right to know.
by Dalkorian August 19, 2008 9:05 AM PDT
by pauljweighell August 19, 2008 1:36 AM PDT
\My right to be paid for my work is way more important than your 'right' to use a privacy argument to steal IP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CNET editors' note: Portion of comment removed for violating posting policy.]

Your right to be paid for your work is FAR LESS IMPORTANT to me than people's privacy. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
by Renegade Knight August 25, 2008 7:19 AM PDT
You have zero right whatsoever to be paid for your work. That's a false assumption. Reality is that you have a right (via copy protection) to market your work for what you can get out of it. That may make for a good living or a nice money losing hobby.

As for what I buy, I dang well do claim a fair use right to enjoy it any way I choose subject only to the limit imposed by the copyright law.

When it comes to whatiever it takes to "protect your IP" great. You do that. Don't force others to do it for you. they have a right to put their time where they can make their best living. That's likely doing something other than policing your IP.
by magicmaster August 19, 2008 2:58 AM PDT
RIAA and MPAA still did not realize why people did not "buy" (pun intended) or "pay for" (pun intended) the content.

They are like Bush administration, always declaring the war on those refusing to side with them.
Reply to this comment
by Fire Balls August 19, 2008 3:54 AM PDT
I pay for internet service not a freaking spy watching everything I do. I think we are going to see a huge rise in encrypted internet transmissions. people and companies are going to start losing trust in their ISPs if they start doing this crap. Or at least they should.
Reply to this comment
by zincmann August 19, 2008 5:46 AM PDT
Lets not act all puzzled as to why the RIAA and MPAA is being allowed to attempt to push and strongarm ISPs into this without any real government intervention. The RIAA and the MPAA have been donating to special interests and congressmen for their "pet projects" for years. Its the ONLY way to grease the wheels so they can get their seemingly insane requests and policies created and levied on the public.
Reply to this comment
by 1Johnzeem June 22, 2009 6:33 AM PDT
Lobbying destroys rights. Pay off the right politicians and you get them to pass laws in favor of your corporation. It's the 1000 pound gorilla that no one sees.<p><a href="http://basementquotes.com>Long Island Basements</a></p>
by man_w_balls August 19, 2008 7:18 AM PDT
Want to make a lot of money? Get started on building a Private Internet Company to compete with the big ISP's! How many people per capita does each comment on this story represent? It looks to me like a lot of people would like to sign up for an ISP that does not spy on its users - Privacy is worth $$$ so let's all cash in and save the internet too.
Reply to this comment
Showing 1 of 4 pages (100 Comments)
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