GM exec: Volt not yet cost competitive
DETROIT--General Motors needs to wring thousands of dollars in cost from its high-profile Chevy Volt electric car before it can compete long term on price, a company executive said on Tuesday.
The biggest challenge relating to the cost of electric vehicles and the Volt specifically is the battery and related components, such as the power electronics and the motors. Compared to other plug-ins, the Volt has a very large battery--sized at 16 kilowatt hours--to ensure that drivers can meet most daily driving needs in electric mode.
For the car to get "traction" in the market, the cost of the battery components needs to drop more than $5,000, said Jonathan Lauckner, GM's vice president of global program management at the Business of Plugging In conference here.
"Clearly if we really want to have these vehicles get traction and want to bring the price of vehicles to a level that's competitive with say, a hybrid today, we got to get battery costs way down from where they are today," Lauckner said.
The Chevy Volt technology includes a T-shaped battery pack in the middle of the car and both an internal combustion engine and electric motor in the front.
(Credit: Martin LaMonica/CNET)GM plans to manufacture the battery pack for the Volt, which is scheduled for release at the end of next year, using cells from a division of LG Chem. Lauckner said that the cost per stored energy for that entire pack is several hundred dollars less than $1,000 per kilowatt-hour, a number that's been projected by people outside GM.
The cost for the battery pack needs to shrink substantially to compete with existing auto technology to the range of $250 per kilowatt-hour, Lauckner said.
GM has not yet priced the Volt, which runs on batteries for 40 miles and uses an internal combustion engine to sustain the battery after that. People outside the company have estimated the cost at about $40,000.
There's a potential additional cost if electric car buyers choose to install a 220-volt charger at home, which will essentially cut charge time in half compared to charging from a regular 110-volt outlet. Having a 220-volt charger installed can cost between $300 and $3,000 depending on the complexity of the job, say industry executives.
To offset that upfront cost, Volt buyers qualify for the maximum $7,500 federal tax credit. The tax credit is one way that the federal government has sought to revitalize the U.S. auto industry around electric vehicle technologies. But Lauckner said that long term Volt costs have to go down further because government incentives will go away at some point.
The ongoing operating costs of owning a Volt will be about one-sixth of that of compact sedan, Lauckner said, adding that the savings go higher as the price of gasoline goes up. GM expects that most Volt drivers will be able to do almost all their driving in electric mode.
Martin LaMonica is a senior writer for CNET's Green Tech blog. He started at CNET News in 2002, covering IT and Web development. Before that, he was executive editor at IT publication InfoWorld. E-mail Martin. 
It is estimated that the cost per mile of running the Volt will be about a sixth of that of a gasoline only vehicle because of the lower cost of the electricity compared to gasoline.
Your electricity bill would increase but no where near as much as you would save at the pump.
Of course the unions contribute tons of dollars to certain politicians (ahem) so no one questions them...
The problem is totally different... when you ran out of juice on an EV-1, you had to plug it in, possibly for hours unless you could find a custom charging station, which would only take 1/2 hour or so, before you could go anywhere. The Volt works like a hybrid.. when the battery is near done, a generator kicks to, powered by normal gasoline. If your drive is less than 40 miles, you can be BEV only, otherwise, you don't get stuck, no matter how far you drive.
The EV-1 was just an experiement, that's why they were leased, not sold. The MSRP of a saleable version would have been over $100,000, based on battery costs.
The reason they were repossessed and destroyed... every automaker in the USA is legally obligated to support any vehicle they sell for something like six years from the date of sale. That means spare parts and all. Given the custom nature of these 660 Gen I and 457 Gen II vehicles, that would have been extremely expensive for everyone involved. Not to mention that the battery packs in these were good for about three years, tops.
I think the EV-1 was a good experiment, but that GM acted correctly. The real shame was not recalling these cars, but pretty much dropping all BEV development after that. They had learned quite a bit, and did essentially nothing with those billions or whatever spent on development. During this same time period, Toyota developed and launched two generations of the Prius, which is now well on the way to being another 400,000 unit a year success.
I am glad to see that GM still has its Mouth Pieces spreading the dis-information. I think it is amazing that Jay Leno offered GM a Million Dollars for one of the EV-1s and they turned him down. But then what to you expect from a company run by accountants rather than Car people.
Bring the cost down by volume. Volume created by sales. Lower the price of the car to where everyone can afford one and sell/market it to death. Quit trying to pay the development costs in the first year. Instead corner the market and pay in time. Common sense says a $40,000 electric car isnt going to save a company.
Seems like same old GM, just making excuses.
As well, the 40 mile range assumes that people will drive the car like Grampa Rhubarb, i.e. nice and steady. Once Leadfoot McGee gets in the car, you'll likely see the range drop down to 30 miles. And let's not forget that the engineers are not quite getting a 40 mile range out of the battery right now, and that's probably with mild driving.
Aaah yes, that's what happens when you make wild claims just to get publicity.
I recently worked with a person that re-built his racing go-cart into an all electric racer. The performance is so superior to the gasoline engine that his plan is to set the lap record and force all the other racers to go electric to stay competitive. His work is based on the superior A123 Nanophosphate lithium battery. Refreshingly A123 is an American company that is a clean technology industry leader. The drive system he developed can be easily up-sized and down-tuned for a family sedan. This is one guy working on the weekend in his garage and he is further along than GM.
I am thinking of developing a computer based battery management system that can detect, identify, and cut out of the circuit a single bad cell from the battery pack so that maintenance is easy and safety is maximized. Current battery management systems simply shut down the entire pack if a failure detected. Cell balancing addresses this issue to some degree but the ability to detect and easily replace a single weak or failed cell will make maintenance simple and inexpensive.
Electric vehicle technology has matured. Formula One racing now incorporates hybrid technology into the cars to get a boost of about 80HP from the battery which is powered from the brakes. It's time for GM to grow up stop asking daddy (the tax payer) for money when they lose it by continuing to produce cars no one wants to buy. The public wants and deserves an ALL electric car that is inexpensive and safe.
One more point: I am not happy about using Korean LG Chem cells for the batteries when an American company, A123, provides jobs here. It may have been a good business decision but it may not be a good technology decision, and is definitely no a smart public relations decision. When, in a few years, they fly the corporate jets to Washington begging for another handout the answer should be no.
As for the comment about the EV1 having a longer range. Perhaps you don't realize the way the Volt works. You drive 40 miles on pure electric power. But once you hit that barrier you don't suddenly have to pull over to the side of the road and call a tow truck like you would in a EV1 or a Tesla. You simply keep on driving because a generator kicks in to keep powering the electric motors.
I mean, if you have a pure electric vehicle that has a range of 300 miles that's great, but what happens when you take it on vacation and the hotel you've booked refuses to give you access to an outlet to recharge it? You can' call an AAA truck to give you a jump start.lol While with the Chevrolet Volt you can drive 300 miles on any given trip and even if your hotel won't let you plug it in, you'll be able to go because the generator continues to power the electric motors. You'll never be stuck with a Volt the way you would have with an EV1 or even the Tesla.
I don't want an all electric car because I like to drive long distances uninterrupted. And a car like the Volt allows me to do this. While a car like the Tesla costs a whole lot more and it only has a range of 150 miles. People keep saying they want an all electric car. Well, this is the best interpretation of one that works for the masses. It's cheap (compared to other electric vehicles, mainly the Tesla) and it won't leave you stranded on the side of the road like an electric only car will. And don't forget, the gasoline generator never powers the wheels directly, it's just like an alternator that maintains battery charge. So the Volt is an all electric vehicle, it's just one that doesn't have to be plugged in after it loses its charge.
And remember this is just the first generation Volt, it was never expected to sell in Prius size volumes anyway. It's designed as a point of departure for the Voltec powertrain and will be eventually implemented in future vehicles that may or not run under the Volt name
As for the talk of how people aren't going to get the mileage promised by GM because they're not going to use the Volt correctly, well you're right, there are going to be those who will complain about that. But that's like complaining that your house is cold because you set your thermostat too low. If you don't use a product the way it's supposed to be used, you have no right to expect the results promised by the manufacturer. Look at the Toyota Prius, when it first came out it was promising 60mpg. But in reality even with the lightest footed drivers max was about 40+mpg. Then there's the test where they tried to drive a Prius so it can keep up with a BMW M3, the result was the M3 with its V8 engine got better gas mileage than the Prius did. So it's all about how the consumer uses the product, and they need to be smart about it.
I truly believe that this will be a homerun for GM in the long run, it's going to solidify GM's place at the forefront of alternative fuel technology. Most people don't know it but GM is one of the leaders in alternative/green automotive technology. And it's in the best interest of the American tax payers that GM do well, it's the only chance we have of every seeing our precious tax dollars again.
The G0 Prius came out, in very small quantities, in Japan, back in 1998. The G1 version, like my 2003 model, was an improvement... the current prismatic batteries, rather then the "D" cells in the G0, a better NiMh formulation, etc. And yet, they only made about 30,000 of these for three years, 2001, 2002, and 2003.
During the G0 and at least some of the G1 run, Toyota was actually selling them at a loss. But certainly by the time the 2004 model shipped, they were quite profitable.
The Volt is going out like the G0, more or less. We'll have to wait and see just how many they make, what the actual price is, etc. Of course, some people will want these at just about any price, just as those big EV-1 fans did... GM won't be saved by making this car now, but they're doomed it they don't keep up with the rest of the world in vehicle technology.
Toyota just launched the G3 Prius this year. Even more reliable.. no more belts, anywhere. And while these first ones are going out with NiMh packs just as before, the architecture supports Li-ion, and they are testing plug-in models in corporate fleets, supposedly right now. I don't think they're shooting for the Volt's range, but this is the way things are moving, GM or no GM.
I'd be very surprised if GM is able to make the car competitive. Let's just hope they don't try to save costs by putting in cheap knobs and hard plastics that I've always experiences as that crap-GM car feel I get with a rental.
it does make me wonder why a standard EV could not be fitted with either a trailer or trunk mounted generator system as a range extender. Leave that in the garage during the week and for the weekend trip to the mountains, hook up, fill up, and go cruising. It could even be NG powered so it's not only clean burning but fits into the Pickens plan for getting off foreign oil in 10 years. But then again, GM does not want EVs. Just ask their dealerships and their lobby.
gm, or any other business, wants >>margins<<<... just like most people reading this article want "disposable income."
Once you remove the engine from a car, you lose heat, cooling, etc. That makes it a different car.
They're also working on the batteries... no one's using Li-ion in a hybrid yet, and some of the BEVs out in small quantity, like the Tesla, are fine if you're rich, but when that battery pack fails in 3-5 years, hope you're still rich. They have to ensure these cells can last through 10+ years of charge/discharge cycling... the typical Li-ion used in laptops and cellphones today fails after 300-500 cycles, or after about 3-4 years even if you don't cycle it much.
One of the EV concept cars did this, some years back... you hooked on a trailer if you needed more than 200 or whatever miles, that contained a fuel tank and generator. Essentially what GM is building in on the Volt.
"GM doesn't want EVs".. isn't true, but largely because there's way more than one GM... companies this large have multiple, conflicting interests, even the newer, smaller, public-majority owned GM. Some factions in GM have been lobbying against their long-term best interests, not just recently but for years. I mean, the trouble GM has been in was largely of their own making... and they've seen the writing on the wall since the 1970s, but only rarely heeded it.
Its not that GM is trying to get publicity for this car, its that they want to make a difference.
The Price thing, Yes well only if it were that easy to lower prices on a relatively new technology that isn't cheap to produce. I wish they could just make a lot and prices would go down but guess what? That isn't how it always works, The batteries are expensive yes.
My opinion: Sell the car that's a little Pricey, In a year are so prices will have gone down on parts lower prices and give better technology. They are trying to solve everything with the first Generation Volt.
Research before you speak people. Hater are nothing but People that don't have anything else to do with their lives there lives but complain and be jealous that their are others in this world that care about something.
face it, it was time for GM to die off and be replaced by a company or companies who had a clue as to what is real, what is possible, and how to do it to. The bailout was a huge waste of our money and a reward for being complete screw ups.
I've owned a Prius since Jan 2004 (when the Gen 2 first came out) and watched GM desperately battle against CAFE standard increases while putting out cars so bad I'm embarrassed to even rent them. Ford I have respect for: they knuckled down even when times were tough and put out the Escape Hybrid, and learned from that and now have the Ford Fusion Hybrid, which-- shockingly-- is a better car than the hybrid Camry! That is impressive. Bill Ford does in fact want to "make a difference". He put tons of money into renovating their Rouge plant into a fantastic example of sustainable manufacturing-- years ago, when Ford really couldn't afford it. And today Ford is the only one of the Big Three not taking big bailout bucks. So spare me the "GM just wants to make a difference". They had their chance and stated VERY clearly for years that they were thrilled to not make any positive impact on the world whatsoever.
Yesterday at the Tokyo Auto Show Toyota unveiled their plug-in Prius. Toyota bet on the wrong Lithium technology so they are probably two years late with this product... which makes them only one year ahead of GM instead of three. I'm sure Plug-in Prius sales will outstrip Volt sales easily, if the Volt even makes it to market.
The Volt does not have a gas engine. Nor is it big. It's an extended range electric vehicle, which also includes a gas powered generator to the charge the battery should it run too low."
@dragonsky1--you are wrong and right at the same time. It does have an engine that drives the generator. It is just not your typical "engine". This is directly from the Chevrolet website:
"Unlike traditional electric cars, Chevy Volt has a revolutionary propulsion system that takes you beyond the power of the battery. It will use a lithium-ion battery with a gasoline powered, range extending engine that drives a generator to provide electric power when you drive beyond the 40 mile battery range"
Not everyone's using dirty power right now, anyway. Where I live (South Jersey), you can chose your energy supplier. The one I use generates power from wind, small hydroelectic, and solar... 100% renewable. It costs me about $25/month more than "regular" power. Another option is power from the new wind farm in Atlantic City, but that's pretty expensive power right now.
Neither electricity nor hydrogen as fuels are guaranteed clean.. the advantage is that they CAN be clean. Gasoline can't be clean... cleaner, maybe, if any of the synthetics under development prove practical (same basic idea as Biodiesel, only harder to deliver).
2 More Cents . GM is just playing catchup with Teslamotors. The roadster is here and very much alive , its range is very adapted to everyone's daily comings and going and recharge time with a medium power adapter can be made from empty to full in 4 hours.
I tend to agree with pretenderkc on the second part of his statement. Living in France is an advantage when you think ecology and using an electric car. I cannot say its a car for tall people or even heavyset types (Ingress is comparable to a lotus) if you can't get in one you ll need the Upcoming Model S from Tesla which is already further along than the GM plans show up the Volt to be.
To ckh1272 : So far the number of french driving nuclear powered car (since 85% of french power comes from nuclear plant) (aka Tesla) is a very small number. Our local car manufacturers race hard to build electric cars of their own branding but so far they are just concept cars and prototypes. But i very much expect that will change soon with the ModelS from Teslamotors.
On a more personal note i think 40 miles while sufficient for some will not be a good thing for the environment. Ok let me start , some engines especially small size diesel show up a reverse tendency regarding their efficiency. Let me explain .
The smaller the engine the higher you have to go in terms of RPM to achieve any given power. On a bigger engine you go lower in RPM and your injected volume can be easily managed to give a steady output flow , a thing that is considerably harder to achieve with low volume engine (harder to rug the system). Another unfortunate fact is that most diesel powered cars (over 60 percent of vehicles in France) run without a particle filter , sure you get less CO2 using those engine but they have horrible particle counts and NO and SO counts (all 3 are irritants) hence the creeping asthma statistics we are now seeing all over the country. What has been traded in terms of MPG has been traded in terms of public health and city pollution.
Why people in France are using diesel simply because the price per gallon is cheaper than gas this has been the case for the last 20 years and during the 90s everyone switched from gas to diesel for automotive needs. The consequences of this move were foreseeable and predictable but no one really gave a damn at the time on the matter.
The real battle IMHO is to get nanotube batteries to the real world and out of the labs. That is the bigger challenge not hybrids. But as of this time no ruggerization tests have been planned on the matter. And please DO NOT mention EEstor that is dead in the murky waters of the technology that no one wants to use since it has been kept so secret and exclusive no one has even seen a demonstration of a ruggerized prototype that would be usable in a car. And let me put one last nail on their coffin if EEstor had any idea as to how to produce what they claim Tesla would not be grabbing the headlights but Zenn would all they have to show up as of this time is a lead battery powered vehicle.
Oh and BTW EEstor is yet to demo the thingie ..
http://taintedgreen.com/green-news/eestor-promises-demo-of-its-radical-new-battery-in-2010
This reminds me of the many adventures and countlesss resurrections of tthe Pantone engine.
- by weegg October 21, 2009 5:44 AM PDT
- Nissan Leaf will eat GM lunch. Hybrids are a nightmare maintenance-wise. You are now maintaining 2 systems for driving instead of one. The only way to go is totally electric and have at least 150 mile range (in freeway miles (EV6), not EV4 standards they are using now). Until electrics meet this milestone they won't really be viable.
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- by Joe Real October 21, 2009 8:57 AM PDT
- Nissan Leaf is ugly, you can have it. It is also more expensive than GM-Volt, so there is no way it is going to eat any lunch at all. It will take some time for quick charging to become a reality and thus you will get stranded with pure EV. Nissan LEaf would be a good commuting car, which the GM-Volt is, but you will have to buy or rent another ICE car on long trips, so you will increase your cost of ownership by at least 50% or more, but not so with GM-Volt and other serial hybrids. The EREV types of serial hybrids such as the GM-Volt and the upcoming Aptera 2h are the best interim solution in this transition to pure EV.
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- by frogpondmedia October 22, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
- Hybrids are a maintenance nightmare? Are you kidding? I have 115,000 miles on my Prius. Other than oil changes every 7500 miles, and other "regular car" stuff, it's dang near maintenance free. I changed the 12V battery once, and ties twice. I have yet to need a brake job or a tune-up (the latter scheduled for the 120,000 mile service, I guess, whether you need it or not).
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Showing 1 of 2 pages (52 Comments)On a trip from SF to LA, the GM-Volt would be ahead of Nissan Leaf by 12 hours, and ahead of Tesla by 6 hours, no matter how fast they drive.
The idea that a hybrid is more complex and harder to maintain is myth. Look at what you don't have to worry about. No alternator, no starter motor, no clutch or transmission. The 3-phase AC motors used are adapted from industrial motors that last 1,000,000 miles-equivalent without problems. The new Prius gets rid of belts, entirely, in the engine... another set of things that fail in a normal car.
Battery-only is a nice goal, but only practical once you can full-cycle a battery without it dying in 3-5 years (you can't... today's Li-ion and NiMh last indefinitely in a hybrid only because they're only cycled through 40-60% of full capacity), and change it on the road, in a matter of minutes. I like GM's plug-in hybrid approach (not sure about the Volt yet, I'll have to actually try one first, and maybe wait a year to see how they do in the field)... it's BEV for short runs, but infrastructure-compatible when I need to go elsewhere (last I heard, that's a FlexFuel if not FullFlex engine, too).