FAQ: What the smart grid means to you
Yet again, the tech industry has a buzzword everyone seems to be using but few really understand.
The smart grid follows the footsteps of the Internet and the interstate highway system--they are giant investments in infrastructure. It's not so much a single thing as it is a goal to give the electricity system a digital makeover to make it more efficient and reliable.
Governments and utilities around the world are devoting billions of dollars to lay new transmission lines and make the electricity network operate more like the computer networks we access every day. Big tech vendors and hundreds of start-ups are jockeying for prominence in the smart grid.
The buzz reflects how important reliable, affordable, and cleaner energy is to our modern lifestyle and economy. But what does it mean for individuals? And what technologies make up the smart grid? To give you a clue on what the smart-grid fuss is all about, we offer this FAQ.
What is the smart grid?
Building the smart grid means adding computer and communications technology to the existing electricity grid. With an overlay of digital technology, the grid promises to operate more efficiently and reliably. It can also accommodate more solar and wind power, which are inconsistent sources of energy that can become more reliable with better controls. Much like computers and routers manage the flow of bits on the Internet, smart-grid technologies use information to optimize the flow of electricity.
What would a smart grid be able to do that today's not-so-smart grid can't?
Right now, if there's a breakdown at your local substation, the utility usually finds out when customers call to complain. Placing a networked sensor inside a transformer or along wires could locate and report a problem, or prevent it from happening in the first place.
Despite living in the age of information, most of us only get a glimpse of our energy consumption when the utility bills come once a month. In people's homes, the smart grid should mean more detailed information through home energy-monitoring tools. These can be small displays or Web-based programs that give a real-time view of how much energy you're using, which appliances consume the most, and how your home compares to others. Just surfacing that information will give people ideas on how to shave energy bills by 5 to 15 percent, utility executives say.
What's needed to start is a smart meter with two-way communications or some other kind of gateway. Once that conduit is put in place, consumers can get more detailed energy data and start taking advantage of efficiency incentives, such as charging your
In theory, networked appliances are smarter and more efficient. GE and start-up display-maker Tendril, for example, will test big appliances--refrigerators, washing machines, and the like--that can get information on fluctuating electricity prices to do its job more efficiently. It could be as simple as making ice or running the dishwasher in the middle of the night. Or, as part of a home-area network, consumers could program lighting and major appliances on a schedule.
The next step toward efficiency is what's called demand response. The goal here is to dial back energy consumption at peak times. This is very important to utilities because it's costly and polluting to bring on auxiliary power plants to meet, say, a spike in demand from the air conditioning load on a hot summer day. Consumers and businesses have financial incentives to participate, such as a discounted rate. "Shedding load" could mean turning the gas heat off of the clothes drier for a few minutes or dimming the lights in a supermarket in the middle of the day.
A smarter grid also makes distributed energy, such as home solar systems, more viable and user-friendly. With a smart meter and monitoring software, a homeowner can see how much solar panels are producing and their carbon footprint is being reduced. A utility, too, is keenly interested in how much distributed energy is available so it can calibrate its own daily power generation.
What are some examples?
Xcel Energy has dubbed Boulder, Colo., "Smart Grid City" and is installing the equipment on power lines and people's homes. Consumers get access to a free Web-based program that gives them a real-time read-out of use, which helps them lower their usage. It also lets them know when they are buying electricity made from clean sources.
When you go deeper into the smart grid, though, you realize it isn't just about a more detailed utility bill. It can also diversify our energy sources, potentially avoiding the need to build new power plants to meet growing demand.
Consider Duke Energy's smart-grid trial in Charlotte, N.C. A substation--the point that distributes electricity from long-haul transmission lines to a neighborhood--is equipped with 213 solar panels and a large battery. About 100 households have smart meters and in-home energy management tools.
When the sun is shining, the 50-kilowatt solar array makes electricity for the homes in the neighborhood. It also feeds the battery, giving the area a few hours of backup power in the case of an outage and a buffer to draw from during peak times. Consumers can take part in demand-response programs, too, to get a reduction on their electricity bill.
One of the more aggressive utilities in this area, Duke plans to have millions of smart meters installed in homes over the next two years. In addition, it envisions putting sensors along power lines, and networking gear, such as routers, in substations and transformers. In people's homes, individual appliances like water heaters could eventually be networked as well.
The project reflects how the utility industry seems to be following the path of the computing industry, which went from centralized processing with mainframes to a much more distributed and varied architecture.
Who are the companies participating in the smart grid?
The smart grid is shaping up to be a giant mash-up of the electricity utility, computing, and communications industries.
Heavyweight tech companies--Cisco, IBM, Microsoft, and Google--all have serious initiatives in this area and loom large among utility executives working on smart-grid programs.
IBM, which sees big dollar signs when it gets involved in large infrastructure projects, is building the technology backbone for many grid modernization programs. That includes installing communications equipment along the grid as well as the software and servers to process the mountains of data that need to be processed.
Cisco, too, is jumping in with both feet with a broad initiative to supply networking equipment for utilities as well as in-home energy management tools. Verizon is looking at this as well, seeing the home network as a point to gather data on home energy use and, potentially, control lighting and appliances for better efficiency.
Microsoft and Google are going after consumers as well while trying to sign on utility partners.
The other key players are the host of start-ups in the area, many of which focus on energy displays. A handful of stronger network-oriented companies are emerging, notably Silver Spring Networks, which offers a wireless card that goes into smart meters.
Finally, there's the electrical infrastructure itself: meters, transformers, transmission equipment, and other hardware that makes the grid tick. In addition to a number of smart meter makers, there are the global infrastructure companies like GE, Siemens, and ABB that are introducing modern control systems to manage the flow of electricity.
OK, so the smart grid is supposed to reduce wasted energy, give consumers better information, and allow the grid to use more solar and wind power. What's the hold-up?
Where to start?
Utilities aren't known as the most fleet-of-foot businesses and the energy industry invests a lower percentage of revenue in technology than most industries. This helps explain why we've been hearing about the grid for 10 years but very few of us actually have it.
But lack of investment is only part of the picture. The whole point of a smarter grid is to use electricity more efficiently, but in many states in the U.S. utilities operate without strong incentives for efficiency, say industry executives. They invest big dollars--think multibillion-dollar power plants--based on their ability to sell more kilowatt-hours, not less. The more progressive utilities have found ways to justify their investments in the smart grid based on savings from energy reductions, but many utilities aren't nearly as enthusiastic because of how they are regulated.
A key regulatory piece of the smart grid is time-of-day pricing, which is supposed to reflect the fluctuating cost of energy delivery in a day. Some sort of tiered pricing would allow a consumer to take advantage of off-peak rates, but it isn't the norm in many states.
Then there's the lack of standards for a dizzying number of tasks. The National Institute of Standards and Technology, which is responsible for establishing an interoperability framework for smart-grid standards, recently released a road map but everyone agrees there's much work to be done.
The basic idea: be more efficient, resilient, and able to use more renewable energy.
(Credit: Department of Energy)Amid all the technical and business challenges, there's the question of consumer acceptance. Consumers, in general, are likely to welcome more detailed information on how much electricity, natural gas, and water they use. But even though there's the promise of energy savings, it's not clear that people are willing to pay much money for home energy-management tools.
Some people and businesses are willing to allow a utility to communicate through a smart meter to remotely control the thermostat on the air conditioner in exchange for cheaper rates. But these demand-response programs are clearly not for everyone. The trick for successful demand response programs is to entice consumers with lower electricity bills without being intrusive or forcing a dramatic change, say industry executives.
Finally, these technology businesses need to be profitable, but many of the technologies and business models need to be ironed out. There's even some concern that a mini-investment bubble is building around smart grids.
Is the smart grid more secure?
Given the smart grid's fledgling status, it's hard to provide a definitive report card. But the rush to modernize the grid has gotten some security experts raising the alarm and calling for more scrutiny.
The increased use of the Internet instead of private networks for Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition (SCADA) control systems and the bleeding together of existing corporate networks with energy providers' control networks opens up more potential cyber-vulnerabilities, they say. Security experts are calling for security to be better baked into the standards for the smart grid and for industry professionals to use better security practices to avoid dangerous hacks.
So when will I have my smart grid?
Like the highways and the Internet, the smart grid will take years to build, probably decades.
The first signs will be better energy-saving tools for consumers, much like the Web brought consumers better tools for managing personal finances. Some enthusiasts will want to closely monitor energy use and ratchet down consumption for environmental and financial reasons. Others may just set up "auto pilot" programs to take advantage of off-peak rates, much like you might use a programmable thermostat.
That said, it's early on and there may be a killer application that will emerge from the smart grid platform.
Martin LaMonica is a senior writer for CNET's Green Tech blog. He started at CNET News in 2002, covering IT and Web development. Before that, he was executive editor at IT publication InfoWorld. E-mail Martin. 







Strawman BS. You picked the words "nothing" and "grudge" deliberately.
Here's what really happens: The state declares something illegal, then goes after you for violating it. The activity becomes illegal because of a statist agenda. The result: You can go to jail if you build a fence on land the state has declared a wetland. In three years, it becomes illegal to buy an incandescent light bulb. The state can now decide that it would be in the public interest for your house to belong to a commercial developer and can force you to sell. If cap and trade passes, you will have to get permission from an environmental inspector before you can sell your house.
You can bet money right now, that the first thing the smart grid will be used for is to enforce energy usage on your home. It will start with fees, and progress to fines.
History is full of the state finding ways to bully its citizens for any reasons it can think of. The founding fathers knew governments were like this, which is why they wanted to make them small and weak. But ignorant fools have been brainwashed into thinking the government will take all their cares away as it suckles them in its iron embrace, and they gladly sign their souls over as a result.
The US government doesn't directly control the power companies so how would they be the blame?
You would need to take these fears up with DTE or w/e energy company provides your power.
Government does not control these companies they have non voting stock.
Government picked inefficient, expensive Detroit sites for the small cars it mandated, over the more flexible and efficient TN and WI sites with better tax benefits, after saying they wouldn't dictate to GM but let it make sound business decisions (coincidentally, those Detroit sites voted for The Party).
The list goes on. Do you think they were joking when they said the Peons can't be allowed to set their thermostat how they want? The Anointed Ones know best.
The government doesn't directly own your land, either, but they can still put you in jail if they decide its wetland and you build a fence on it.
A government doesn't have to own a company in order to tell that company how to operate. It's called regulation.
History has shown that government always takes advantage of new technology to exert greater control, and Smart Grid is no exception.
The GAO just release a report that plugin cars do not save much electricity. The 4 or 5 percent of CO2 saved is only because plug in cars have substantially smaller engines and motors than conventional cars.
Electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles are not designed to save electricity. These vehicles are a response to declining supplies of oil, which is in much shorter supply than our sources of electricity. I am not saying we will run out next year, but you get the point. As far as CO2 goes, the savings will increase more and more as we transition to low-carbon generation.
10 billion dollars would pay the electricity bills for 5 million homes for a year. What's the pay off period for smart grid?
The point of my comments should really be that this is putting the cart before the horse. A hard analysis of power generation technology needs to be made and funds need to be diverted to those that actually work rather than those supported by VC hoping they work. Paying for all this other stuff like smart grid and electric cars will only make sense after that has been accomplished. Why this isn't happening is of course the dems and greeenies don't like nukes.
They're offended by the idea that the unwashed masses can afford to support themselves, and want to make everyday life as difficult and expensive as possible. Their model for this is Old Europe, where government interferes with every aspect of life and takes its cut of every remaining productive venture.
They want to increase prices, decrease quantities, and rinse and repeat until we're dependent on their handouts.
At the utility level (outside of homes), it does pay to have Smart Grid technology since faults can be quickly isolated and the whole power grid tuned for efficiency. Even so. there are large start-up costs which ultimately the customers must fund. And inside the home Smart Grid really only helps the customer and it's up to the customer to pay, like it or not.
I live in Boulder. While initially the $100 million price tag for our city of 100,000 to become the first Smart Grid city is being paid for by Xcel, several partner companies, and government grants, Xcel has stated that it fully intends to add a charge to Boulder utility bills in the future to recover their costs if the technology is permanently used.
Do you keep your thermostat set at 74 all day every day? I honestly hope not. When you are asleep, do you need 74 degrees? What about during the day when you are at work? A $20 programmable thermostat will pay for itself in a couple months AND save energy. Not to mention that your grandmother can figure out how to program them.
There's nothing wrong with you getting a programmable thermostat to make your house miserably hot at night to save some money if that's what you want to do. Where you cross the line is when you tell me I have to do it.
No, I don't *need* my thermostat set to 74 or any other temperature, but I don't see why some parasite politician should be making that call for me or any other. I wonder if you'd be so control-happy with your 1st or 4th Amendment rights (I'm sure you would with the 2nd). I guess soon we'll be replacing the Bill of Rights with the Bill of Needs...
I am keen to use the electricity monitoring feature of these devices to better control my utility costs, but there is no indication that I will be given that opportunity. Hydro will use data collected from my meter to begin charging me time of use rates - in order to control peak usage. I will have access to those same data 24 hours later, which frankly isn't good enough. I've ranted about this before, but it feels like an opportunity missed: http://www.energycircle.com/blog/2009/05/15/smart-meter-has-arrived-hydro-hasnt/
This is an important conversation to keep going. It feels key to me that the beneficiaries of the smart grid are consumers with the ability to reduce usage.
Nebraska is in a unique market, since we sell our own electricity at a lower price to our customers and make up the difference on off system sales. We have been pushing energy efficiency because it will help keep our peak demand down, avoid building costly new power plants, and we can sell the excess energy we save to other states.
We are also implementing a smart meter system. They are installed in quite a few communities that we serve but the whole state won't be converted until somewhere around 2012 I believe. Our company continues to look into "smart-grid" technology where we think it can save Nebraskans money.
Q: Why do they need to replace my meter?
A: The old meter required a rep to come out and read on a monthly basis. The new meter allows them to get the data remotely through the electrical lines.
Q: Can I opt out and keep my existing meter?
A: No, as there will be no one to read it any longer.
Q: Can this new meter be hacked?
A: Puzzled look, didn't know.
Thoughts on this:
With the old meter, the only data that could be acquired and analyzed was my kilowatt usage per month.
With this new meter, they will have the ability to monitor my usage in real-time.
Who will be maintaining this real-time data and who will have access to it?
How long will this data be maintained and where?
What could this data be used for?
Conclusions:
Implementing these meters means jobs lost in the local economy.
Implementing these meters provides too much information regarding my electrical usage.
In addition, I read an article a couple of months ago in which the energy czar stated they hoped to actually be able to monitor our usage with the new smart grid technology, and if a person has their thermostat set too low on their air conditioner, they would be able to decrease the amount of current available so the A/C unit will not run at peak efficiency.
So they will have the ability to limit or cut off our electricity, and I wonder if they will charge more for homes that consume too much electricity during peak hours.
Bottom line:
A lot of things sound good on the surface, but when you dig down you find a lot of potential trouble.
"No companies or governments are planning on controlling people's power flow like that. "
You are incredibly naive. You're talking about the same government that is hell-bent on controlling what you eat by banning food all over the place. Put money on it now that this same government will want to control how much energy you can use. Get ready for energy quotas. Exceed your kilowatt-hours in a day, and your power gets shut off.
US government doesn't control US power companies.
Your incredibly paranoid.
Why can't people just take something for what it is instead of always thinking their is some evil plot to it boring life I presume?
Your opinions seem to be very cynical. My guess is that you've been rereading Orwell 1984 a bit too often. What's your next suggestion: for us to smash our cellphones, because the government can *force* the cellphone companies to hand over your signal code, and track you, wherever you may be? Then again, you'd probably agree with me.
I believe that the future of smartgrid technology will never be as twisted as you make it out to be.
Turn on your brain. The government doesn't own restaurants either. It didn't stop it from banning what kinds of ingredients they have to use in the foods they prepare.
The government has incredible amounts of control over power companies. The government didn't own the land or the power company in Kansas, but decreed a power company could not build a power plant in the state.
I'm not paranoid at all. My conclusions are based on current observation of government behavior.
I'm not cynical at all. I'm a realist. All governments tend toward tyranny. That's why the founding fathers wanted to keep them as small and weak as possible.
Out government in the past 6 months has fired the CEO of an auto company, has forced banks that didn't want to to take federal money (Wells Fargo), has threatened punitive action against companies that pay "unapproved" bonuses. A few years a go, the government decided it had the power to take your land if handing it over to commercial firms would generate more tax revenue. The government can put you in jail if it declares your property a wetland and you build a fence on it. Government in New York and Illinois are telling restaurants what kind of ingredients they can use in the foods they prepare. The government has decreed that incandescent light bulbs will be illegal by 2012.
Is it paranoid or cynical to assume a government with this demonstrated history of a desire to control how people live their lives will use the smart grid to extend that control?
But Boulder has already signaled a willingness to control what should be private business transactions between Xcel (our power utility) and its customers. Every month it forces Xcel to tell it how much electricity each customer uses. Boulder then taxes this amount to fund its effort to get the city Kyoto compliant.
So many things to consider, but let's jump in head first without too much forethought, and figure out where we screwed up later!
I don't know why fiber speeds are needed. But if there's any excess capacity, none of it will be available for Internet access. Apparently my toaster will be able to access the Smart Grid network at megabit speeds, while I'm stuck with much less on my cable.
Good article Martin, and I know this is a much larger topic than can fit in a few paragraphs.
In the article, one thing that is failed to mention specifically (though it is a bit of a background theme) is the massive scale of the undertaking. Where smartgrid pilot projects have been undertaken there is literally so much data that is coming in that the utilities are having great difficulty managing and making sense of it. The remainder of the article basically deals with smart meters along with billing and usage implications and what it means to the consumer, which brings me to a couple of the comments;
In the comments there is mention of the government controlling electricity to one's house. #1 it is the utility. #2, they do this today, without anything "smart" in the grid, just the operators that are distributing the electrons.
Third & final comment - what is the business problem that the government wants to solve? Greater redundancy in the electrical grid? better use of resources? etc, And can this be done without implementing a full blown smart grid and at a lower cost?
As to Smart Grid's uses, outside of the home there's a lot for the utility to gain. Power loads can be switched in under a second in case of a failure. Homes with extra generating capacity (e.g., solar and plug-in hybrids) can be contacted to add power to the grid and their loads can be managed. If necessary to prevent total collapse of the grid, any Smart Grid devices in the home can be told to shut down. There's a lot that can be done at the utility level. While each of these advantages can probably be tackled using separate different technologies, my guess is that Smart Grid lets all this be done with one basic technology which is overall the most cost effective for the utility.
Inside the home, it's a lot more questionable. Most of the power savings can be done by using a Kill-a-Watt or other power monitoring device to find power hogs and limit their use. Common sense can tell you when is the best time to run your washing machine or dishwasher. To get the marginal benefit of real-time monitoring and control using Smart Grid, you've got to add Smart Grid network adapters to each major appliance (basically you just plug the appliance's power cord into a Smart Grid network adapter, which then plugs into the wall). Or you can get rid of perfectly good appliances to buy new ones with Smart Grid built-in. Either way, it's expensive and probably not worth the cost. And whether or not you decide to make your home appliances Smart Grid capable, you still have to pay the utility for its costs of installing Smart Grid on its power grid.
And with no extra power on the grid, then they WILL lower the voltage down to all to (likley around to 98 or so to keep the system from collasping) and of course then things will run less efficiently and will internally fail faster.
It will mean a few hundred billion dollars spent to allow the government to tell the utilities that they can charge more during peak times to change social and natural behavior - and of course the Government will get more since they tax on income and if you charge more people during peak time for something they need, then the Government gets more money. (Just don't eat dinner between 5 PM and 8 PM when demand is most to cook, eat all your meals after 8 PM to save electrical costs - oh yes, don't turn on your lights during the winter.) They are going to micromanage you life in your house now - and the roads have been the proving ground.
2) There is a very likely chance that there will be no power on the grid for the smart system. In one of the worst case scenarios, in which designers totally screw the smartgrid up, and don't provide enough base power. Again, I don't think we should be assuming for the worst. It's not healthy. =P
3) I don't think the highway system is the best analogy. It is pretty inefficient how the highway is congested one moment, then empty the next. If we could smooth this out a bit, it would ease up the headache for everyone. And driving times are more flexible than, per say, A/C usage in the afternoon.
4) The roads have been the proving ground? Can you clarify that a bit- I don't understand your point.
This means the power is leveled out, but the fundamental issue of the future needs is thus not even looked at. But the leving of power is at best (my guess) 5% change in habit / need.
If charging people to use a road twice as much when the demand is highest - and people still use the road - then they know they can charge more for electrical use when the need is highest - and 95% of the people will still pay. Rush hour congestion time 6 AM till 9 AM - double the charge - well people STILL have to get to work during that time so they HAVE to pay - there is really no alternative travel option. With electicity, there is also NO OPTION to avoid paying, so we will. And the extra income generated by the extra taxes on the higher charge to use it during that time will make the government happy.
Electrical use follows a very common pattern in most everything - peaks in early AM, drops, peaks at lunctime, drops peaks again in evening. Traffic flow patterns are the same - and electrical use peaks around 60 minutes after the typical traffic pattern - duh!
Tom
www.taphilo.com
The more interconnected it is, the more dangerous it becomes to have larger massive power outgages - there is NO spare capacity being planned - it is all efficienies - this is being done to avoid building power plants.
For transmitting electricity over longer distances, there's talk of higher voltage lines or moving to DC transmission instead of AC. Apparently a big loss of power occurs when trying to interconnect one AC grid to another because you have to match the power cycles (hertz) exactly, and the only way to do that is by converting to DC and then back to AC, which is relatively inefficient.
I currently am living here in N america like you ( but have a conscience & under stand
things like social responsibility) If people turn their a/c or furnace up thats their choice but
I perform energy audits & I can tell you most bldgs waste 40% of the energy they pay for -
if people plugged the wasteful gaps in their places and switch to Solid State lighting overall
consumption would give us a much better dynamic regarding Energy Use. Oh and the cost
reductions would make even an old avericious republican happy!
The ultimate goal is a docile well behaved citizen who has no choice but to support the eltites. Religion, guns, schooling, parenting, anything and everything to break down the individual is the goal. Read up on Woodrow Wilson..."Progressives are Socialists" no difference...they hailed Musillini's fascism until it blew up the world.
Make no mistake...this Obama government is lead by a Marxist Bigot and supported by the new Democratic National Socialist Workers Party...GM...Gov Motors....stolen by the feds and given to the workers...no rule of law.... You RED vs BLUE voters are being had...and you're told that free thinkers are wingnuts....key word is THINKERS.....they hate thinkers.....think about it and wake up....WE NEED TERM LIMITS AND A REPEAL OF THE 17TH AMENDMENT.
Yes with smart meters utilities have access to your power consumption in a real time basis. They eventually with smart appliances can turn on and off your individual appliances to suit the needs of the "grid". The employees at the utility can check your consumption at any time and tell if you or someone is at your home and using energy. Patterns of use can be developed to tell when you get up everyday and what you use when you get up. You can be turned on and off remotely and your meter can be read remotely (which yes will cause the loss of some jobs).
So part of the question should be how much do you trust your local utility and its employees. They will have a tremendous amount of information at their disposal about how you live your life. Here's another one for you. Being for profit companies what's to say they won't begin to sell the information about your energy usage patterns to other companies? After all in this day and age money is king so they will find a way to profit from that information. I would support more investment in nuclear technology and power plants as well as ways to prevent line loss (about 40-50% of all the electricity made never reaches its destination its lost over power lines during the transimission process). This technology in my opinion is too intrusive and there are not enough checks and balances developed to ensure that the vast amount of information gathered is used in an appropriate manner.
My mom lives in the west and she is part of a pilot program with a smart meter on her home. Her air conditioning is turned down at the discretion of the local utility as well as the power to things like her dryer when she tries to use it during peak time. I am filmed at intersections and throughout my daily activity. I have been backround checked and vetted by the government over a dozen times due to the security involved in my job. I am not interested in giving the government or my employer yet another source of information about how I live my life.
Higher energy costs might push people to more geothermal and other less en ergy costly ways to cool.
I am against time of day power pricing mostly because I expect my bill will go up. During the summer I keep the A/C at 75 degrees all day because I have a device on my A/C that cuts the power on high power demand (i.e. really hot) days. If I tried to set up my thermostat to drop from 78 to 75 at say 3 PM the house would never cool off on a really hot day due to losing power 15 to 20 minutes an hour.
flipside of the coin relates to having certain rules & regulations ( like local building codes / mandated
exit lights Ada requirements)
Let's look at the 3rd area of the coin ( the rim ) we would all benefit to use logic and rational thought,
Want to be more judicious with our various resources... ,good example my electric bills - I CUT THEM IN HALF IN 3 yrs. FROM $ 70. to $ 35.00 per month nowadays!!
Anybody who wants to can do logical things like switching to Solid State Lighting/ Weatherize their
property -- Agreement with many- educate the people it's better then legislating /bullying -
- by Swooley July 12, 2009 11:25 PM PDT
- Skynet anyone?
- Like this Reply to this comment
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