It takes a village to sell an electric car
It turns out that weaning the auto industry off gasoline isn't as simple as turning out electric cars from a factory.
Auto industry executives say they will couple their first mass-market electric cars with a big dose of community outreach, with the hope of making the new generation of vehicles more desirable and convenient to consumers.
Car companies intend to target places where governments are willing to provide incentives to purchase plug-in electric cars and install charging stations. Utilities, too, need to be involved so that the grid doesn't become stressed by a rush of cars.
General Motors is already coordinating with industry partners, community leaders, and utilities to ensure that the apparent strong demand for the Chevy Volt--due in November 2010--will have the infrastructure to back it up, said Tony Posawatz, vehicle line director of the Chevy Volt.
"We are looking at communities that exist that are willing to put all the pieces together," Posawatz said at the Electric Drive Transportation Association's Conference & Exposition earlier this month. "To me, the Volt is a remarkable product. But, if the other stuff--the communities, etc.--isn't there, then we run the risk of failing."
Private-public partnerships
The financial industry bailout bill (separate from the auto industry aid package that failed to pass Congress) helps clear the cost hurdle for plug-in electric cars. Depending on the size of the battery, consumers and businesses can get up to a $7,500 tax credit starting next year.
But that financial incentive isn't quite enough to rapidly spur mass adoption, say auto companies.
Municipalities or states could create incentives to install charging "pedestals" in urban neighborhoods or other public spaces. Similarly, businesses or parking lot owners could install charging ports.
With a good charging infrastructure in place, auto makers hope that mainstream consumers--rather than only adventurous bleeding-edge buyers--will have a positive experience with plug-in electric cars.
A charging pedestal from Coulomb Technologies.
(Credit: Martin LaMonica/CNET Networks)Nissan, for example, is readying what it considers a mainstream sedan, with the usual amenities of modern cars like on-board navigation and heated seats. That's a break from electric cars that are already available, such as the pricey, $109,000 Tesla Roadster or existing neighborhood electric cars that can't go highway speed.
Because it is a mainstream product, Nissan will stage the car's initial introduction in the fall of 2010 in region's that have the right infrastructure in place, said Mark Perry, director of product planning for Nissan Americas. That will help it prepare for "mass market" availability in 2012, he said.
It is establishing "public-private partnerships" with governments and utilities in an effort to ensure things like favorable permitting and available inspectors for charging stations, Perry said. So far, it has agreements with Tennessee, Oregon, and Sonoma County, Calif., to set up a network of charging stations in public places.
"As we think about the individual consumer, you don't want it to be an open question--Ok, I want an electric vehicle, what do I do? We want to have those answers," said Perry. "It's not a technical hurdle. It's more a coordination and logistics hurdle."
Nissan is considering a battery swapping program, something that start-up Better Place plans to set up in a number of countries, Hawaii, and the San Francisco Bay Area. The idea is to avoid the problem of a car's limited battery range by having a network of spots--they would resemble car washes--where drivers can swap fresh batteries in for depleted ones.
Other auto makers are taking a similar region-by-region approach. Mitshubishi's electric subcompact, the iMiev, has been testing a fast charging infrastructure with seven Japanese utilities capable of replenishing battery charge to 80 percent in 30 minutes, said David Patterson, senior manager for research and development at Mitsubishi Motors in North America.
The cars will be available commercially in Japan next summer. Mitsubishi also plans to run tests as fleet vehicles with California utilities Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison.
Smart charging
Utilities, meanwhile, need to be involved in electric car roll-outs to hammer out technical standards and ensure that the grid won't be over-taxed by the added load of electric vehicles.
The Electric Power Research Institute said in a study that the the U.S. power grid could accommodate many electric cars, all while improving air quality and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. A spike to 60 percent market share in 2050 of plug-in electric vehicles would use between seven and eight percent of grid-supplied electricity, it found.
Click on the image to see a photo gallery from the Electric Drive Transportation Association's Conference & Exposition earlier this month.
(Credit: Martin LaMonica/CNET Networks)However, an analysis from the Oak Ridge National Laboratories found that rapid penetration of plug-in vehicles could require construction of dozens of more power plants if utilities can't control when vehicles are charged. If millions of consumers recharge their cars during peak times, such as early evening, utilities might not be able to meet demand with existing power plants.
The technical solution to this problem is so-called smart charging software which will allow utilities to remotely control when vehicles are charged and at what pace.
During the Electric Drive Transportation Association's Conference & Exposition, General Motors and smart grid start-up GridPoint remotely dialed into GM's Warren, Mich., testing labs and altered the charge rate on a Volt. GridPoint earlier this year bought V2Green, which developed software specifically for utilities to deal with electric cars.
"The last thing you want to do is charge on peak," said GridPoint chief strategy officer Karl Lewis, who warned that on-peak charging could lead to higher electricity prices. "We envision a compact between the utility and the consumer to incentivize consumers to do off-peak charging."
A utility could, for example, offer what's called time-of-day pricing, where consumers would get cheaper rates to charge a vehicle after midnight when demand is low.
On a technical level, the protocols and standards for charging electric cars en masse still aren't settled. For example, auto makers are waiting for guidelines from the Society of Automotive Engineers International on fast-charging methods, which can make a significant difference in charge time.
Using a car charging device at 240 volts will fill the Chevy Volt's batteries in three hours, versus eight hours if out of a standard 120-volt U.S. household socket.
Building a "geek squad" to install 240-volt charging boxes at people's homes is one example of the services that will smooth the way for electric cars, said GM's Posawatz. "There are a lot of opportunities and possibilities for different people in the value chain," he said.
Martin LaMonica is a senior writer for CNET's Green Tech blog. He started at CNET News in 2002, covering IT and Web development. Before that, he was executive editor at IT publication InfoWorld. E-mail Martin. 
Personally I like the idea of battery swap outs rather than charging stations.... less drain on the grid as they can be trickle charged a liesure using cheapest and greenest power... easy access to upgraded power packs taking in Lithium ion or whatever comes around. no power pack life cycle limitations easy upgrades...
Plug-in hybrids will still be able to run on gasoline once they deplete their batteries.
As stated in the article, there will be public charging stations, so unless the entire city is out, you will be able to find a place to charge up somewhere. Filling stations will likely have fast charging points as well.
The whole electric car movement is a big piece of crap being shoved down our throats.
The premium you pay for electric cars, given their uncertain long-term maintenance and disposal needs simply don't make it worth looking at electric.
Why pay the fan boy tax?
Your G35 is too slow compared to what an electric car can be...Reminds me of "What's wrong with the horses
"A normal gas engine spins at 6,000 rpm," Garcia says, noticing my surprise. "This motor can spin up to 12,000 rpm," which means there's no need to change gears. "You don't have the normal car problem where you need first gear to get off the line. We just took the original transmission and stuck it permanently in second."
Just google "Shai Agassi and Wired" & read more about what the overall picture means. Here is the link to the original article...
http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-09/ff_agassi?currentPage=7
Thanks!
End of story. Electric cars will always be anemic, underpowered and short-ranged. Stick your fingers in your ears all you want, that wall you are slamming into is called physics and it won't go away.
On the other hand, yes, electric cars are faster than gasoline consuming ones. Watch the video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7352118104883452737
Build one that sells for less than $20K, and actually performs in the same league as a cheap $20 gasoline car, and then, only then will electric stop being a fantasy.
Who pays for the public charging stations?
Who pays for the power to recharge these things from these public charging stations?
Someone other than the taxpayer better be paying. I'm tired of subsidizing every freeloader who comes along. 5% of taxpayers pay 60% of income taxes and that's too much. Get your hands out of my pocket!
Same thing with wind and solar power. People are trying to push these as alternatives using tax incentives in an attempt to show cost parity to current solutions. It cannot work like that and be viable.
Watch the movie called "Who Killed Electric Car"
Sure, whatever the oil companies don't like something, they remove it. Perhaps the fact that those electric cars sucked and cost a fortune and couldn't take you on a trip or haul anything MIGHT have been a factor in their non-acceptance by the public (battery costs were $4000 per year, swallowed by GM , but not Toyota). GM could never lease more than 80% of their electric cars at any one time. The electrics were total flops - they didn't need any conspiracies to disappear.
With ignorant folks like this one around, what hope is there for our future? And one just as brainless will move into the White House in January. He's teling everyone that the coastline is being submerged and that Katrina was the result of global warming, despite the fact that the past 10 years have been cooler than normal.
One of my favorite examples of these fuzzy reality/economics is that you don't hear much about the real cost efficiency of electric cars. Have you ever seen a complete analysis - starting where you generally loose 30% of the mechanical energy expended to generate electricity, then you have the losses in the distribution the electricity from power plants to sub-stations to the users house or charging station. Now consider that the environmental cost associated with electric car construction is a lot higher than gas cars - especially when you examine the chemical waste products associated not only with battery production, but most especially in battery reclamation and recycling. We don't even have a working dry cell recycling system.
When you loop back on all of these costs and efficiency loss numbers to a power grid that is more than 85% dependent on fossil fuels for electrical generation no matter what time of day it happens - there are some very serious examinations that need to be very publicly made on whether an electrical car system actually puts us ahead economically (financial or energy economics) and environmentally. Or if these our strategies are just marketing tools by those in a position to gain from their adoption.
We are just now trying to come out of an extended period that has been totally characterized by political corruption, cronyism in collusion with corporate larceny at a scale never before imagined and where the US public/tax payer has been repeatedly lied to and date raped (Bush-Iraq, Blageovich, Madoff - just to name a very few). A period where US leadership (political or corporate) has no credibility what-so-ever for logical an unbiased decision processes for the public good . We really need to re-examine and re-evaluate the entire electric car strategy - our entire future energy strategies.
US average fossil fuel powerplant efficiency (renewable and nuclear not included): 0.328, transmission efficiency:0.924
Take a RAV-4 EV (should be a good representation of what you can get with a practical EV) efficiency of 112mpg (this is plug to wheel, so it includes charging inefficiencies and battery inefficiencies already) equivalent combined: you get 33.94 mpg in the end. Slightly better than a Highlander Hybrid. Keep in mind this doesn't factor in the renewables and nuclear.
So the excellent efficiency of the EV makes up for the losses of the fossil fueled powerplant.
And on the issues of battery recycling and energy intensiveness of manufacturing, haven't seen any good rebuttal to the current accepted claim that we can handle it, given the accepted research showing around 80% of a car's energy use is during driving. I'm sure you have seen the heavily criticized and debunked report that found the Prius was worst for the environment than a Hummer after considering the manufacturing. Batteries are getting better and better, nimh still has the issue of nickel, but many of the new lithium based batteries are landfill safe. The manufacturing of these batteries really shouldn't be any more harmful than manufacturing a heavier car, given we no longer rely heavily on truely toxic batteries like lead or nickel cadmium. Of course lithium raises issues on the cost of recycling (material recovered is worth less than recycling cost). We can learn a lot on hybrid battery recycling, which seems to be going fine currently and I believe the ultimate burden of recycling will be on the manufacturer (esp with the proposed leasing program by Project Better Place) and it will be factored into the cost of the battery pack (costs a couple hundred to recycle a large pack last I looked). Using the used packs on the grid for load balancing is also a good alternative to prolong the usefulness of such packs.
As a new technology it will have to be subsidized in some ways in order to get things rolling (true of any of the alternatives we are considering). This means at least either incentives or direct money put into research. Currently very little is put into EVs comparatively (a lot more into ethanol and biofuels). I wouldn't mind if more money and incentives are spent with this in mind, especially to make the infrastructure to prepare. The time seems to be ripe for EVs because auto manufacturers are coming and offering EVs voluntarily this time.
Sources:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2003&make=Toyota&model=RAV4 EV&hiddenField=Findacar
Warning, PDF link:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2000_register&docid=00-14446-filed.pdf
How do you heat an electric car?
If you use an electric heater it will drain the battery really quickly?
Fact - It will take 10 to 15 years for electric cars to reach that saturation point because of people who know nothing but run their mouths off.
Fact - Plugin hybrids like the Volt do not need public charging stations, or Utility involvement. They draw less than a plasma TV.
I would highly recommend reading the following article which is titled the "Top 25 quotes from Toyota and Honda executives criticizing plug-in battery technology:"
http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/top-25-quotes-from-toyota-and-honda-executives-criticizing-plug-in-battery-technology/
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
A few things for you to ponder:
1. Toyota and Honda talk down plug-ins because they don't want to focus on the market. This is a commercial decision, not necessarily a technical one.
2. Hydrogen technology, like plug-ins, requires those little electricity thingos. It comes from the same places the little electricities that power the plug-ins come from. Oh, and it requires storage the likes of which make petrol and LPG tanks look primitive (and cheap) by comparison.
3. What's that you say? Hydrogen Fuel cells? Yep, they work, but the manufacture costs make Li/Ion batteries look cheap by comparison. And yes, the cost will come down as the technology improves, but the same argument goes for battery technology.
4. What is it about alternative energy/alternative fuel proponents that makes them talk down all the others? Limited investment funds compared to proven technologies (petrol/gasoline, coal, LPG/LNG, and yes, even nasty nuclear). It is all about the grab for cash. Far be it for me to suggest a more united approach might serve everyone's interests.
This is going to be a long race to the finish folks (look how long petrol has been around). It won't be over by 2012, or 2020. In fact, with a bit of luck, the innovation will keep going. Including better, more efficient/cleaner petrol and diesel engines, better hybrids, and better plug-ins, with better/cleaner processes to provide the power for all of them (and let's not forget better public transport to give us more options).
Ultimately though it is up to we, the consumers, to vote with our feet and wallets, and also at the ballot box for those who encourage development of greener transport and energy technologies (note the deliberate use of the plural folks).
OK, problems: short range, longer stops to "gas-up" with electricity, the possibilities of brown/black-outs, and the (environmental and monetary) costs of generating electricity.
OK, solution? small, on-vehicle turbines that produce electricity to both charge batteries and/or power the motor(s)....use the batteries for getting under way, and a wind powered generator (turbine) to begin powering the motor at say 10-15mph, collect air at the front of the vehicle, funnel it through a venturi to increase it's speed, and direct it onto fan blades connected to the wind powered generator. Simple, easy, minimal drain on existing power plants, and cost effective. Fans to make a vehicle work better? I wonder what Jim Hall would think of the idea.
GREED, GM wanted to sell more expensive cars, maintenance, and their good friends the oil companies...15 years later and none of the big 3 can come close to the EV-1...what's the problem?
I'm all for renewable energy and change, but I've yet to see something conclusive on the electric car being the solution. Like people have previously said, it looks like we're shifting the problem from the consumer end to the utility side where it's more hidden. You solve one problem and create 10 more.
Below is a link to my Battery powered Electric Vehicle (BEV) that I converted for less than $10K on weekends for about 3 months give-or-take. I use it to drive to work, around town, and back home daily then I charge over-night and get 45-60 miles of range on a charge. I can also plug in at work and get more range if needed.
[url]http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o42/jaynethecat/Ranger%20EV/[/url]
Soon, I will add a 30KW generator to make it a series hybrid and have all that the GM Chevy Volt will ever have except the big price tag and their expensive OEM price replacement parts for when their "new" technology parts fail.
Below is a link to others who have done conversions to cars they have. You can do a search by make/type of vehicle at the top of the page to see what other makes have been done and view them as well.
[url]evalbum.com[url]
You should start your own conversion company.
- by tiktin December 28, 2008 8:21 AM PST
- Gas stations need to become charging stations. Cars need to be charged in five minutes or less, not three hours. That means massive amounts of electric power will have to be fed into gas stations. You are right that we need international charging standards. It is not a technological problem. The standard for plugs will have to involve something like a hundred pins mated to something like an old fashioned shower head, each pin charging one cell of the battery pack, in order to transfer that much power in so short a time. Of course there will have to be safety features so that people don't electrocute themselves. Government may well need to jump start the process, as you say, but once there are a significant number of electric cars and a charging standard, it will become a source of profit for utilities and gas stations and they will install the necessary hardware on their own.
- Like this Reply to this comment
-
Showing 1 of 2 pages (47 Comments)