Living with Internet trolls: Get used to it

Credit Jim Brady for speaking truthfully about a controversy even though he's never going to win in the court of cyber opinion.

In an interview with my colleague Greg Sandoval, Brady, who is the executive editor of the Washingtonpost.com, suggested that online anonymity can foster abusive, locker room language that violates Web site standards.

"People say things online they would never say when disagreeing with someone at the dinner table. I think heated debate is fine, but when there are (flame wars), many people won't take part for fear they will be attacked and bashed over the head with the (Internet-equivalent) of a steel pipe."

He went on sketch a future in which people are required to identify themselves before leaving posts on Web sites. So-called "bozo filters" aren't enough for him. "I don't know whether we do it with a credit card number, a driver's license, or passport, but I think making people responsible would raise the level of discourse."

I'm sure Brady's familiar with artistic depictions of Saint Sebastian through the ages. The arrows are already flying, but Brady obviously expected to become a target. OK, he made his (very public) point, but the Miss Manners shtick is destined to fall on deaf ears.

Brady and anybody else who publishes on the Web--from big media conglomerates to the newest blogger--understands that rough elbows predominate in cyberspace. Who doesn't wish the conversation was more polite? But that's the price you pay for a no-holds-barred dialectic. The smart talk is going to drown out the bleating anyway. So let the trolls waste their time leaving F-bombs on talkback boards, if they must.

[rapier1]

The smart talk is going to drown out the bleating? When do you expect this to start happening? I've been on the net for 20 years now and what I've seen happen, over and over again, is that the smart people get sick of the noise and leave to create a new list/newsgroup/forum/community with fewer idiots. Then the idiots find it and drive up the noise ratio until, once again, the smart people leave.

[Sumatra-Bosch]

Exactly. It's a variation on Atlas Shrugged. Call it Atlas Winces and Walks.

[gggg sssss]

Jim Brady == bozo

what if the world filtered HIM out.

Stick to newsprint

[charlie cooper]

oh, i don't know about that. sometimes a certain group of fanboys will go on jihads, but i still think the bulk of the conversation you find in /talbacks is worth reading

[wzrobin]

I've come full circle on this. While he's right that anonymity results in many people abandoning all civility in online conversations, the other side of the coin is that there are some (and it only takes one if you are really unlucky) deranged people out there, and anonymity protects you from them trying to take a online disagreement and bring real world stupidity to it (I've seen someone who was very open with his identity threaten to put a pipe bomb in the garage of someone he disagreed with... so obviously getting rid of anonymity doesn't cure all ills).

[ewelch]

Gizmodo seems to have struck on a way to keep the noise level down somewhat. Ban anyone who criticizes them, even for their own admittedly boorish behavior.

[Screwball7070]

F#@$ Jim Brady! Whoops, guess I'm a troll. ;-)

[alegr]

Oe noe! Poor Jim Brady got POd! Go grow some skin!
As far as I remember people are not required to identify themselves when they speak in public. Even if you don't like what they say. That's in Constitution! (or Conbreastution, if you like that better).

[ghostofitpast]

Charlie, your response (8:55 AM) did not surprise me. I just wonder whether the data would support you. There is certainly a lot of evidence to support the contrary position. The more important question is whether either side of the argument is based on a representative sample. My guess is that there is so much diversity in these exchanges that there is no such thing as "a representative sample;" and we have to take a more context-based approach to the question (where "context" needs to be defined in something more specific than our personal casual memories).

[Pete Bardo]

We have the right of free speech, but not anonymous speech. And it has nothing to do with posting on privately (non-government) owned blogs. But, if Jim Brady is that intent on suppressing trolls, maybe he needs to be a bit more diligent in moderating the discussions. He is certainly free to delete any posts that offend him. Of course, that may cost him readership.

And, there is no reason that the identities of non-anonymous posters can't be protected, if that's what they want. I certainly wouldn't want my name, address and phone number or email address to appear along with a post criticizing GW's anti-terrorist policies!

BTW, this has nothing to do with the Constitution!

[rdupuy11]

Filtering out swear words is child's play for a computer. What really bothers people looking to 'raise the level of discourse' is, in fact, that range of opinions are greater than what they desire. They are all for free speach, as long as the disagreements and speach are narrowly configured into the realm of what they agree with or what they are willing to disagreed upon.

It's shameful, disgusting. Let the trolls troll, because tomorrow you will be the troll.

I don't care much to discuss politics anymore...but I would never try to shut down those still wanting to participate in that. Now we have a lot of international visitors...the Chinese are rabidly pro-communist and China, and there will be some heated discussions about it.

You cannot win an argument, you can only make someone aware of the existence of disagreement.

The trolls aren't quite as silly as you may think.

[rdupuy11]

@Bardo,

We have the right of free speech, but not anonymous speech<-- the Supreme Court held that anonymous speech is an important right.

Your distinction is baseless....most of these conversations are taking place on privately owned websites, where the right to free speech doesn't apply anyway.

[Penguinisto]

Actually, there are many ways of ditching the flames and outright trolls, without compromising identity and privacy. First off, check to see if the commenter is using an open proxy (it's pretty easy to check for), and deny anyone using one. Second, require a valid (and paid-for) email address for an account (e.g. it has to work, and no, no GMail, no hotmail, etc). Those two bits right there will wipe out 98% of the crap, without everyone demanding that they post their social security number.

Just a thought...

/P

[Imalittleteapot]

And the next big thing on the net? Come to our site!!! Where you can post anonymously without fear of retribution!!! Don't go to those other sites! They want to sell your identity!!!

Great way to open up a new market there. Then you can decide which way you want to go while posting. Do you want them to have your name. or not so much? Choice is awesome.

[slimshady007]

Says it all.

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

;)

Tim G.

[Len Bullard]

It won't stop because violence is a permanent part of the human psyche just as it is in nature everywhere. The difference is the human can choose to practice justice, an act not a condition. On my blog, sign it or it won't get posted. No deals, no discussions, no negotiations: just local policy. My policy.

You have to make up your mind what you tolerate in your house or on your blog. My mantra:

"Say NO to Thugs".

These days it is become more useful in more social situations. You have to fight The Blue Meanies, Charles. Otherwise like kudzu, they choke off the living.

[Len Bullard]

It won't stop because violence is a permanent part of the human psyche just as it is in nature everywhere. The difference is the human can choose to practice justice, an act not a condition. On my blog, sign it or it won't get posted. No deals, no discussions, no negotiations: just local policy. My policy.

You have to make up your mind what you tolerate in your house or on your blog. My mantra:

"Say NO to Thugs".

These days it is become more useful in more social situations. You have to fight The Blue Meanies, Charles. Otherwise like kudzu, they choke off the living.

[ManticMan]

The smart people, eh? Conceited any?

I know a fellow who is quite a bit smarter than I, and perhaps yourself -- a physicist who worked for NASA and a software programmer -- who tends to be an internet troll. Particularly on political sites. Of course, he doesn't see himself as a troll. To hear his side of things, it's the folks on the blogs who have the problem, with their clannish solidarity against outsiders. But it is an aspect of his personality, this habit of looking for conflict, and many people seem to have the same compunction, to varying degrees.

I believe that this is natural, though. The most adaptive folks seem to develop internet social skills to manage internet behaviour. The rest of us learn to tune out the noise, avoid what we can't deal with, or just choose our side and revel in the mayhem. ISort of Darwin pond, this worldwide web...

[ManticMan]

The smart people, eh? Conceited any?

I know a fellow who is quite a bit smarter than I, and perhaps yourself -- a physicist who worked for NASA and a software programmer -- who tends to be an internet troll. Particularly on political sites. Of course, he doesn't see himself as a troll. To hear his side of things, it's the folks on the blogs who have the problem, with their clannish solidarity against outsiders. But it is an aspect of his personality, this habit of looking for conflict, and many people seem to have the same compunction, to varying degrees.

I believe that this is natural, though. The most adaptive folks seem to develop internet social skills to manage internet behaviour. The rest of us learn to tune out the noise, avoid what we can't deal with, or just choose our side and revel in the mayhem. ISort of Darwin pond, this worldwide web...

[bentdavi]

VISTA SUCKS Period

[jhgjhgdsfg5544]

TOPIX.COM A TROLL PLAYGROUND

I would like to warn people about sites such as the American based "news" forum named topix.com. This is a free news frorum of reputable question.

This site does not require user registration and anyone can post messages onto any of its forums. This site is a playground for trolls and internet absuers, stalkers and bullies.

If you report it them you will not probably not get a reply and trolls are left unchecked to post any trash or hate they want to, this will include links and photos of anyone they wish to slander or attack.

The world is full nut jobs and the internet can be their playground. Trolls are generally crazy people who love to bully and attack others via the security of their PC. If left unchecked they can destroy and damge people lives. I think all websites and forums have a reponsibility in a "civilized society" (or whats left of it) to protect other people from such abuse. Simply having free forums and unregistered forums is both irrisposible and stupid.

[LaBoom]

See also 'Internet Tweeter' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweeter_(Internet) . . A different breed of 'Troll'