Nazi uproar over YouTube leaving bad choices all around

Google has been caught up in a controversy over anti-Semitic videos that have been circulating on YouTube.

The Central Council of Jews in Germany has gone to court to force the video-sharing site to permanently purge the files, according to the Israeli daily Haaretz. The paper quotes Stephan Kramer, secretary general of the Central Council, saying he believes Google was culpable for "aiding and abetting racial hatred and discrimination."

Should there be limits to what can be found on YouTube?

This question is especially freighted with extra historical baggage in Germany, where the Holocaust occupies a front row in the nation's historical consciousness. And as much as it breaks my heart to say, I think the Central Council is making a mistake.

In the U.S., hate groups figured among the earliest of the early adopters. They quickly figured out how to exploit the Internet to spread their message and use the medium to raise money. More than half a century after the Holocaust, one might have hoped for better. Then again, people don't really change that much from one generation to the next. The only difference is the quality of the technology at their disposal.

But in Germany, incitement to racial hatred crosses the legal red line. And that's why YouTube finds itself in the cross hairs. German television last year carried a report in which it was stated that, among other racist works, Internet viewers could watch a Nazi propaganda film called Jud Suess on YouTube. I watched Jud Suess years ago in college. The Nazis intended the movie to reveal the depravity of Jews. Instead, the paradox is that Jud Suess is a powerful weapon against racism. It offers compelling video testimony about that particularly insane mix of evil and absurdity that characterized the narrative of the Third Reich between 1933 and 1945.

If other, more current and more graphically horrifying videos have begun circulating on YouTube, would that really surprise you? Not me. When racists get their hands on high technology, you wind up with a high-tech-savvy racist.

But Google shouldn't get hung out to dry. Instead of being on the receiving end of a lawsuit, aren't there more sensible, if not more calibrated ways to figure out the next step? I don't have any quick answer to the question. Let's get a conversation going and let me know how you think the sides should proceed.

[Lemon5]

While Nazi Germany was a very unfortunate for the World, especially Jews, i can't shake the feeling that The Central Council of Jews in Germany is going to far. An example being the KKK. Are there still KKK meetings? I could probably go on youtube and type in KKK to find all kinds of videos. Are those deleted off of Youtube? Honestly, i didnt type that in (ISP could get a little suspicious). So should Nazi propaganda get the boot off of Youtube? No, it is free speech. While i may disagree with you, i still think you should have the right to say it. Also, Nazis should go and get a life. Honestly, killing people because of their religion is pretty lame.

[mt_powder]

I couldn't agree with you more. Its sad that this stuff still exits...perhaps a few more anti-nazi videos need to be posted that shoot holes in all of this nonsense. Although they may have their free speech, we (anti-nazis) do as well.

[cjdrover]

As terrible as the existence of these videos is, censorship in never the answer. Hate groups that publish this material only hurt themselves by doing so - there are many rational people who oppose these groups that would be unaware of the existence of such groups if they did not publish material. Although this is speculation, I suspect that these videos do far more to catalyze action against the groups that create them than convince new people to take up the same views. One area YouTube and the like could improve in, though, is restricting the viewing of material like this to adults - children are too impressionable to see it without guidance.

[yeahright2008]

Let the Central Council of Jews in Germany view / not view, and / or post, what they want; and let all others view / not view, and / or post, what they want.

With regards to ...

'Honestly, killing people because of their religion is pretty lame.'

- I agree; especially with tomorrow being 'Good Friday' - the day that Jesus died at the hands of the Jews.

[grant_ray]

Please consider a closer reading of the accepted gospels of Mark and John. Secondary scholarly texts will be helpful as well. I write this because of your blanket statement "that Jesus died a the hand of the Jews." This is a naive claim lacking in spiritual, as well as symbolic and metaphorical, depth.

[jdzions]

"the day that Jesus died at the hands of the Jews" - oh, reeeeeaalllly? I don't think so - yet another base lie intended to defame Jews. Seriously - try doing some research instead of regurgitating the hate-filled bile showered on you by some ill-informed or malicious person.

[Rick Mc Callister]

Stupidity is usually it's own reward, so censorship of stupidity doesn't work. People should see hate-mongers for the fools they are. Parents need to monitor what their kids are watching but any adult of normal intelligence can see in their videos that haters and supremacists are scum beyond redemption.

[tangible]

Nazi propaganda is illegal in Germany. I prefer the American concept that the antidote to evil speech is good speech, not suppression. However I can understand that a country that murdered 6 million Jews in the Holocaust feels a special obligation to avoid any resurgence of fanaticism. As for Google: They operate in repressive places like China by agreeing to obey local laws, even when those laws are used to suppress legitimate dissent. If that's their policy, they should obey German laws as well, and erase the material.

[cnetterite]

Hey, Read your own comments. "I suspect that these videos do far more to catalyze action against the groups that create them than convince new people to take up the same views. " and "...children are too impressionable to see it without guidance" are completely contradictory. This whole question has been wrestled with everyday in Germany for the last 60 years, through literature, laws and discourse. IT is good to continue the dialogue but let's not kid ourselves that a posting will make a dent in this countries dilemma.

[coltonmiller14]

I'm definatly no Nazi, and i have no idea what they have on jews. THey're just like any other person. If people are smart enough these days, they won't listen to the people who are like that out there. If you look on youtube, most people are saying "how can you say something like that." Whenever i see films like those, i trashtalk the people who made them. haha Screw the Nazi's or any racists.

[mburkley]

Just a possible editorial correction: The last paragraph begins with
"But Google shouldn't get hung out to dry." I think you meant YouTube?

[wango2007]

While most can sympathize with the request of the Central Council of Jews, their support of censorship is just plain wrong. They are no different than those Islamic people who want to censor cartoons of Mohammed.

We Americans, as champions of free speech, must reject such requests by ALL special interest groups that seek world compliance with their wishes. It is a form of intellectual hostage-taking, and wrong. It is always better to have controversial issues out in the open so people can discuss them and learn the horrible consequences of certain lines of thought.

I am sorry that Germany has repressive laws because of their history. They, above all, should understand the importance of free speech no matter the cost. I feel sad for them as a country.

[yeahthisisrob]

Well, first off China is a lot different from Germany. In China the way you access the internet is strictly controlled and filtered beginning at the source. Google/Youtube could change their german site and it wouldn't do any good because someone in germany could easily access the non-german content.

"Just a possible editorial correction: The last paragraph begins with "But Google shouldn't get hung out to dry." I think you meant YouTube? "

Google owns/is the parent company of Youtube, so that statement works.

[btonetbone]

Google purchased Youtube for a few billion dollars last year, so the last paragraph does make sense.

[BaiRen]

According to Christian teaching, Jesus chose died to atone for the sins of ALL.
Thus all humans who have sinned are equally "guilty" for his death.
Also, according the gospel accounts, Jesus was crucified by the Romans, the civil power in Judea at the time.
The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Jains are equally "guilty" with the Jews for Jesus's death.

[charlie cooper]

no, i meant google. it's youtube's corporate parent. so ultimately, any legal action related to youtube winds up on the desks of google's corporate lawyers...a la the current viacom litigation.

cheers

[hamtrap]

All I know is that none of my Jewish friends killed Jesus. So leave them alone. Even if Jews had killed Jesus (which, as mentioned earlier, is not the case), the current generation cannot be held responsible for what their ancestors did more than 2000 years ago. Now can we please get back to more important discussions, like whether Macs or PCs are better?

[lolo-hi]

Its amazing about the whole freedom of speech thing. Nice comments (freedom of speech) so shut the *&$% up. Get a life. I'm in full agreement with "hamtrap" let the betters discussions begin. MAC RULES!!!

[gsacks]

I'm Jewish, and I (quite obviously) abhor any anti-semitic hate speech whether it comes from Nazis, neo-Nazis or any other group. Just as most right-thinking human beings abhor any form of hate speech, regardless of the target group. I also abhor hate speech against Muslims. I do have Muslim friends (yes Jews and Muslims can get along), and I have seen first hand the discrimination they face in this country. And I unfortunately have to agree that at least in the US, these hate groups have a right to free speech. But there is in fact a real difference between what the Central Council of Jews in Germany is seeking vs the Islamic extremists you speak of. First of all, the Danish cartoonist who drew a caricature of Mohammad had his life threatened over what was essentially a political cartoon, even if it was in poor taste. Those extremists are perpetrators of hate just as much as the KKK or neo-Nazi groups. The central council is taking a more measured (and sane) approach. You are free to disagree with them, but please do not lump them in with people who preach violence. In this narrow sense, yes they are in fact different.

Then there is another issue entirely. The US constitution protects free speech, but only in a public forum. There is no right to free speech in a private forum. As far as I know, there is no legal precedent that YouTube or any other internet site is actually a public forum (YET). So YouTube/Google could remove anything from their site for any reason.

[Jim Hubbard]

Foolish.... We see this type of illogical rant all the time. Cries to hide away the ugliness in people and society - as if that would actually rid the world of it. It won't. Demanding that things that we deem immoral or anti-social be hidden from view or demanding that we stop people from speaking openly about those things in pubic forums only serves to drive those thoughts and movements underground, where they fester and grow silently larger. Without voices of reason to counter the thoughts and concepts that give life to these movements, the movements will grow. The same foolishness that called for Braves baseball pitcher John Rocker to be fired and sent packing because of his intolerance towards gays and others is the same foolishness that calls for the hiding of Nazi thoughts and memorabilia. Instead of sending these people underground to spread their views without opposition to impressionable children, young adults and others that have never been presented with their hate-filled rhetoric, we should invite them out into the light. We should shine the light of reason and truth upon them - for in doing so, we would render their arguments moot. We should also take this great opportunity to uphold freedom of speech - even for those with whom we strongly disagree. What better lesson about free speech can we teach our children than to show them someone spreading thoughts and ideals that we disagree with and explaining to them that, although we disagree with their message, we will fight to the death for their right to speak it? It's time adults started acting like adults and stopped the foolishness of hiding from the things with which we disagree and time to teach our children about the power and necessity of freedom of speech - even when what you speak is intolerant, bigoted or ignorant. Just because your foes may be ignorant, you do not need to join them in ignorance by helping them to hide and grow in secret. Support freedom of speech for all people, philosophies and ideals. Who knows? Maybe the next free speech that needs protecting will be yours....

[lanceroni_123]

I am sorry but if you want to say that you-tube is not a public forum then I suppose we should prevent the publishing of Anne Frank's diaries. Most ridiculous. Give the racists a rope to hang themselves by and more not less information is good. Only the weak will succumb, unfortunately the weak alway reproduce more readily.

[gregorytga]

Problem is the US laws do not extend overseas nor do Germany's apply here. Protecting free speech in America often means protecting the most offensive and repulsive aspects of expression. Its a double edged sword that we've managed to protect (although under fire again with neo-conservative politics such as flag burning). However, Google may have to censor pro-Nazi videos to abide by German law. While it might cross our own ideals of freedom of expression, we've come to terms with the ugly side but we can't expect them to accept our ways on such a sensitive issue. A resolution should be met that doesn't involve a drawn out legal battle or fine. Its the cost of doing business in Germany. Besides, YouTube already has a level of censorship, be it no pornographic material, violent crimes (There was a racially motivated snuff film from one of the Russian satellites that was remove, as well as selected executions) and so forth. Its hardly the forum for unabated expression to begin with.

[gregorytga]

Clarification: They may have to censor content for German web surfers, not US.

[perfectblue97]

Censorship is not the answer to extremism. If you censor and extremist you simply provide them with more ammunition. The Nazi claim that governments and big businesses are working in collusion with the Jews, and all deleting their webcasts does is reinforce this idea and give it apparent legitimately.

The only way to fight extremism is to expose it as being ridiculous and bigoted, if you censor it then you are no better than the extremists because you are taking away their First Amendment rights simply because you don't like what they are saying. free speech isn't about saying nice things, it's about being allowed to say whatever you believe needs to be said (aside from inciting murder, etc).

cnetterite: "This whole question has been wrestled with everyday in Germany for the last 60 years, through literature, laws and discourse."

Actually, it hasn't, not in public at least. What discourse their has been is one sided due to Germany's post war laws which prohibit many of the ideas that are central to the Nazi argument form being aired in public.

Seriously, if you walked down the street in Germany and tried to convince people that certain historically recored elements of the holocaust were exaggerated you could go to jail for it.

This tends to put moderates off voicing the kinds of opinions that are needed to fill in the other side of a rigorous debate, leaving the Nazi side of the debate to be filled in by extremists who either are not afraid of going to jail, or who hope that going to jail will gain them publicity that they ca use to further the belief that they are being silenced by a state-Jewish conspiracy.