Hardly a great time to talk H-1Bs. Still, it's time

What with pink slips being handed out all over this country, now is probably the worst time for any political leader to urge a rethinking of our H-1B policy to lift the 65,000 annual limits on foreign guest workers in specialty occupations. It's not the sort of political stance that will play well in Peoria - or in many other places in the U.S. these days.

But it must be said: Maintaining the status quo on H-1B is the best news that China, India, Russia or any other would-be economic superpower could ever want to hear. The reverse brain drain returns smart people with advanced degrees to their countries of origin. And in the increasingly hot, flat and crowded world that the New York Times' Tom Friedman describes in his latest book, these are the sorts of folks every country will covet.

What we're not talking about here are rank-and-file jobs that come and go, depending upon the whims of the business cycle. This is the next generation of superstar engineers and entrepreneurs, who clearly will leave their mark. The only question is where.

"The current rules are nuts," adds Bob Muglia, a senior executive at Microsoft.

In particular, he pointed to the process in which foreigners, who get educated in the U.S., wind up getting exported back to their home countries. "It's crazy," he said, drawing a distinction between "highly-trained people and migrant farm workers."

His is a common refrain among tech types. This was the second consecutive year in which the federal government got swamped by applications well in excess of the annual 65,000 limit for H-1B visas within days of opening the visa window.

Barack Obama surely must be getting an earful about this from trusted tech advisors, like Google's Eric Schmidt and Xerox's Anne Mulcahy. What's more, computer industry executives, who have long chafed at numerical ceilings on the H-1B, are likely to take a more assertive tone after the new administration takes office next January.

That's the only way to get the ball moving. They haven't been happy with the situation for quite some time and in conversations, it's clear that their frustration is at the boiling point.

"It's the most ridiculous thing that I've ever seen," says Seagate CEO, Bill Watkins and the vice chairman of the Silicon Valley Leadership Group. "We train them and then don't let them stay here? Come on. More than half the companies in the (Silicon) Valley were formed by immigrants. You don't see that happening in the last three years."

Nobody's going to win a popularity contest by advocating we let more foreigners receive U.S. jobs. But now let's think about the long-term. For Watkins, a strong proponent of "getting "American companies to identify with America," the deadlock on over H-1Bs is yet more proof of rules and regulations which ultimately work against the country's economic self interest.

Seagate CEO Bill Watkins

"I've been moving operations offshore because that's where my grads are," he said. "It's a ridiculous situation that we're in."

Last spring, the SVLG traveled to Washington D.C. to make its case. Unfortunately for SVLG, its timing wasn't the best. Congress was then more concerned about illegal immigration and the fairness of bringing "cheaper" H-1B candidates into the country. The upshot: Nothing got done. f

For what it's worth, here's what they were asking for.

•  Raise the H-1B cap and allow it to fluctuate to reflect market demand and unemployment rates

•  Exempt US advanced degree graduates from the H-1B cap

•  Apply existing 20,000 H-1B set-aside to foreign university advanced degree STEM graduates (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics)

•  Increase the employment-based Green Card cap to reduce and prevent future backlogs

•  Exempt US advanced degree graduates, as well as foreign advanced degree STEM with US work experience from the Green Card Cap

•  Exempt from the green card cap those spouses and children of green card recipients

Once again, their timing is bad. The most recent employment report was abysmal the news isn't likely going to get much better anytime soon. I think an H-1B rethink is a good idea but try selling that one when unemployment is nearing double digits. When it comes to long-term thinking, most of us usually fall in with the short termers.

[michaelo1966]

Since they're the "best and the brightest" they won't mind a few minor changes to the program: a) they must be paid over $120,000 in salary and the amount will be indexed for inflation, b) they can never be hired out; they can only work on products (not services) that are being built by their sponsor, and c) committing any type of fraud in their application or during their employment will carry a minimum 20 year prison sentence for the H1B and the sponsor. Of course, since the real purpose of the program is to dump labor and facilitate outsourcing -- it has nothing to do with brain-drains or phantom labor shortages -- these changes are likely to be considered unacceptable. Let's hope the Obama administration and Congress finally kill this awful program and the L1 job-drain that goes along with it. The H1B and L1 program lowers demand and pay for techies, driving US students into other areas, it facilitates outsourcing, it enables age and national origin discrimination; it's sole purpose is for cheap labor. It's past time to go.

[hvla]

lol best of luck pulling this through, never gonna happen, i suggest you move your lazy ass and up your skills so you can compete better, your a native you have an advantage, so quit being lazy and COMPETE

[wdougan]

Hey hvla - you need to be a hell of a lot less arrogant. India's growth is based off of the wealth of the American people. We provided you guys the opportunity to come here and work, so you better have a little more sympathy for those Americans in IT that have recently lost their jobs.

[joelam888]

$120K in San Francisco is different from $120K in Idaho, LOL.

[BoboKnows]

Charles, wake up! You are being conned by CEOs whose interests (higher profits and bigger bonuses) are not aligned with our country's interests.

I've worked in the Valley for 25 years. I've met and worked with hundreds of foreign nationals. I can only think of a handful of them that I would classify as 'superstar engineers'. The vast majority of them are no more talented than my typical American colleagues.

So why do CEOs and managers crave H1-B workers? Simple
1) They are willing to work (at least *be* at work) long hours because oftentimes they have few responsibilities/connections/interests (families, etc) outside work.
2) They have to put up with whatever crap, unfair treatment, etc management heaps on them, because if they are fired or quit, they risk losing their H1-B status and being sent home.
3) They are willing to work for less money.

As the IEEE has said many times, if there is a true shortage of engineering talent in the U.S, the law of supply and demand dictates that salaries would increase. But they really haven't.

If we Americans want more of our children to become scientists and engineers, the best incentive we can give them is higher salaries and more job security. If the typical engineer made as much as the typical lawyer or doctor, many more of our brightest children would opt for careers in science and engineering. But that won't happen as long as our CEOs continue to both import engineers and export engineering jobs.

[nonaste]

Excellent comment because it's the glaring truth about this sorry situation.

[joelam888]

Supply and demand, I see. If the salary hasn't dramatically dropped despite there're tons of new H-1B workers each year. What does it mean?

[medezark]

@Joelam888,
Actually the salary, as adjusted for inflation, for IT workers, has dropped substantially over the last 25 years.

[joelam888]

As adjusted for inflation, Bill Gates wasn't nearly as rich 25 years ago, too.

[kimb1]

Charles: Would you consider giving equal time to the viewpoint of U.S. citizen/taxpayers whom Congress is supposed to be representing? There are many tech workers who have been directly harmed by H-1b and willing to speak with the media - search for them at www.hireamericansfirst.org.

[kimb1]

Among the provisions that industry wants is "Raise the H-1B cap and allow it to fluctuate to reflect market demand and unemployment rates" - so who will be charged with making the call that the job market conditions call for a reduction in the H-1b level? What do you think the cap should be currently, with SUN and HP and Yahoo and many others laying off thousands of IT workers? If the Programmers Guild were charged with controlling the cap I'd support this - because we would say "H-1b PROGRAM IS SUSPENDED UNTIL THE U.S. ECONOMY IMPROVES!"

[madmatthew]

Sure, let's just keep up that race to the bottom of who will work cheapest for the tiny permanent upperclass that owns everything important! Why, there are still plenty of middle-class jobs left to destroy by the insane trade policies of the last 30 years that have us competing against slave labor!

[kimb1]

Charles: the largest users of the H-1b program are indian consulting firms that pay their workers, that hold MS degrees and additional skills, less than $60,000. These foreign firms boast they they are able to beat out American consulting firms and workers because "we pay our H-1b workers 25% less than we'd have to pay Americans." They then ship these jobs back to India, undermining the U.S. tax base and increasing our trade deficit. Please contact me and get the other side of the story - www.programmersguild.org.

[joelam888]

Consulting firms, American or Indian, are evil, anyway.

[Jake Leone]

It is clear that Microsoft, Google, CISCO, Oracle, all want more h-1b's because they are cheap and indentured, not because they are the best and the brightest.

It has been clear, in several U.S. Government reports that the h-1b system is used to fill in low-level IT jobs, allow open discrimination against U.S. citizens, and fascilitate (indeed start and enable) the offshoring of millions of U.S. jobs.

It is clear that more than 1-in-5 h-1b employees are not qualified, and have stolen the job from a more qualified U.S. worker because the h-1b applicant committed fraud on U.S. Government applications.

http://www.hreonline.com/HRE/story.jsp?storyId=148129535

I have interviewed several h-1b candidates, 2 in particular from Google stick out. One was a supposed to be a Unix expert, but could not answer a simple question like how kill a running process on a Unix server. The other said she was an experienced Java Web developer, but didn't know what a WAR file was.

It is also clear, that this program is being used to move whole IT departments overseas. And that is exactly what Pfizer is doing right now. Pfizer is abusing the H-1b program, Pfizer is using H-1b program to remove jobs. If you want to stop the Brain Drain, stop the H-1b program, and by doing so save jobs in Connecticut. More H-1b workers, just means more jobs shipped overseas, and nothing points this out more clearly than the Pfizer scandal.

http://industry.bnet.com/pharma/1000472/pfizer-is-focus-of-probe-into-use-of-immigrant-rd-workers/

Listen, right now every CEO has the idea, because it is fashionable (CEO's are truly birds of a feather on most issues, including h-1b, greed is the main reason), to layoff 10% of their workforce. And most of the layoffs include Software Engineers. Not allowing the U.S. economy to rehire it's own native workforce, is just plain not-human. Basically, talk of raising the h-1b cap at this time, is what you would expect from selfish predacious hyenas (actually it's an insult to hyenas to even compare such dirt-bags to hyenas).

Further, IT companies (Such as Google, Microsoft, CISCO, Oracle...) companies use proxies such as Infosys, Satyam, and numerous small employment companies. (Companies that openly discriminate against U.S. citizen, and that advertise that only people who can be sponsored for h-1b can be hired, americans are not given the chance to even compete for a job in their own land). The actual number of h-1b workers used by Google, Microsoft, CISCO, Oracle is actually much higher than they officially report. And American Citizens can't get these jobs, are never given a chance to compete for these jobs, because these companies use the small discriminatory head-hunter agencies to keep the jobs ads away from U.S. Citizen.

Raising the H-1b cap, clearly, will just complete the Brain Drain circuit and allow companies to move all their operation overseas. If you want to continue the decline of the U.S. economy, then by all means raise the h-1b cap. If you want to really keep jobs in the United States, then you know that the H-1b program is the true source all U.S. brain drain, raising the cap will only allow the free flow of all U.S. technology to places outside the country.

Just check out http://www.programmersguild.org/, for more information, and articles from Official sources, and respected news organizations, that prove the reality that the H-1b program has to go (or be subject to extreme reform) in order for the United States to keep jobs in the United States, and to end the discrimination against the U.S. workers, and the unfair hiring practices of companies such as Google, Microsoft, CISCO, Oracle through their proxy head hunting agencies they rely on for cheap, indentured workers.

[CoolMower]

Jake Leone,
You speak the truth!

Thank you.

[joelam888]

Yes, pretty cheap, Microsoft to Google are paying over $100K for H-1Bs.

[cryofpaine]

I agree that we need to rethink this program. Think about doing away with it completely. You make it sound as if this country is populated by a bunch of slack-jawed yokels who can't add two plus two without counting on their fingers, and that the only salvation for these poor unfortunate companies who are trying to be good patriotic Americans by keeping jobs in country is to recruit the uber-geniuses from other countries who have deigned to grace us with their intellect.

Unfortunately, thanks to the damage being done to our education system by such brilliant policies as "No Child Left Behind" (obviously designed by someone who was held back at some point - but not long enough), we may end up there eventually. If you really want to think "long term", how about giving up on a policy that will lead to the United States of India or Mexico or Timbuktu and instead focus on fixing a policy that is leading to children in the most "developed" country scoring on or below par with children in 3rd world countries.

[Daves1221]

State Governors have gone to Washington, cap-in-hand--looking for taxpayer bailouts. Why are Americans ignoring the fact that places as Los Angeles, San Francisco--other states and cities-- have been financially supporting millions of low income, uneducated illegal aliens for years who are incessantly exploited by parasite businesses. 37 million in the United States, according to Tucson BP Union. Millions more ready to pour across the border, after Obama steps in to the Oval Office. Millions of people have become a taxpayers charge because those who slipped into America by any means have less than an 8th grade education. Stimulate the US with imported engineers, scientists and university graduates who are not going to cost the taxpayers billions of hard-earned dollars.

Thousands of citizens and legal residents have been murdered or otherwise victimized, under the illegal local government 'Sanctuary' policies. Read the facts at www.judicialwatch.org, www.numbersusa.com, www capsweb.org and www.americanpatrol.com Only here can you read about the illegal immigration invasion and the consequences of OVERPOPULATION.

[AmFuzzy]

I live in the Seattle area and have worked for some of the top IT companies in the world. I am happy to see other colleagues express the same feeling regarding foreign workers. Charles you are full of it and have lost all my respect for your opinion. These foreign workers do nothing but provide a low cost employee to their companies. Saying these are superstars is such an exaggeration I had to laugh when I read that. Most of these workers are average at best. There are some exceptions but they are just that...exceptions. I truly believe that if we stopped importing these tech workers we would have an increase in students interested in these areas of study since there will be more opportunities available to them at salaries that are appropriate to their skill level. If anything H1-B VISAs should be suspended until the economy is thriving again. Call it protectionism if you like. We need to learn to take care of our own. Many of these workers send US $ back home and do very little if anything to really contribute to the US as an economy or even country.

[joelam888]

Average H-1Bs are still better than below average US workers for the same price.

[relawson]

Bring it on. Now is definately the time I want Congress to be drafting H-1b legislation. Bad news for you though - the days where 20% of H-1b visas are issued fraudulently will soon be over. Days when the top users of H-1b visas are Indian offshoring firms will be over.

I'm almost certain you are prostituting your position in order to get more advertisers or perhaps looking for another job. You can't seriously believe that we need more H-1b visas. And given that the top sponsors of H-1b visas are offshoring firms, you can't possibly believe other countries will benefit by lower H-1b numbers.

You win the worst IT journalist award. Congrats. Last time I checked this is a capitalist country. If you want more people to pursue this occupation, pay more. That's how capitalism works.

[dataguy_IL]

I have a better idea. Let's simply cancel the H1-B program entirely. There are hundreds of THOUSANDS of unemployed US IT workers. If the Indians go home and get jobs, good for them.

My view is, even Americans should be able to get jobs in America.

[joelam888]

Let's train Joe the Technician and make him a Senior Java Developer!

[MikeG8r]

As much as I'd hate to say it. I'd rather foreigners get jobs here than have the jobs shipped overseas. I can't compete for a job if it's in India.

[relawson]

You are falling victim to industry scare tactics - the H-1b visa drives jobs overseas. The top employers of H-1b visas in this country are ALSO offshoring companies. Wipro, Tata, and Infosys - and a few more you may or may not of heard of. In order for them to complete projects offshore, they need labor onshore to act as intermediaries. And, they also do alot of staff augmentation at large corporations. These companies rarely hire American workers - their culture has no qualms with discrimination (ever heard of the caste system).

Just go to Wikipedia, look up H-1b. There is a chart indicating which companies and which nations are the top recipients of H-1b visas. Restricting H-1b visas will create more jobs that pay more money in the United States. You have nothing to fear but fear itself. Industry is using fear tactics so you don't think critically about this issue.

[abc2h1b]

I am a H1B worker. I am equally proud of both my home and adopted country.

It is sad but true that the H1B worker program is nothing more than indentured labour. It allows employers to take advantage of workers who initially fear for their visas and later get trapped in the endless cycle of backlog filled permanent residentship process.

H1B == CHEAP LABOUR = LOW SALARY + EXTRA HOURS = SWEAT SHOPS.

Undoubtly, there are bright people all over the world. And some of them come to the USA on the H1B programs. Unfortunately, the H1B program is only designed to attract the best and the brightest in theory. In practise, the majority of H1B/L1 are simply exploited by Indian and American companies alike to keep wages low and feed corporate greed.

Mandate minimum salaries and qualifications for H1B workers, allow them free movement to switch jobs the moment they reach American soil and enforce "American first" to minimize exploitation of these visa programs.

[joelam888]

Right, the first thing to do is to fix the loopholes of the H-1B program.

[relawson]

Enough of this. Let's just have a public debate in a neutral forum. We'll put our best against your best. Let the viewers/readers decide.

[wcrosby]

Charles -- you really bit on this one didn't you? These guys will destroy any number of American jobs and get even bigger bonuses -- so its no wonder that they want to continue to destroy the American middle class.

I was called into my manager's office today and told that everyone in the company is taking at least a 10% paycut , and that we are laying off about 10% of our staff. There is absolutely no reason in the world why there should be any H-1Bs imported at all this year -- not until the mass layoffs start.

These calls for expanded H-1B numbers is essentially a call for unlimited replacement of American jobs. If these guys get what they want, then every member of Congress should be thrown out on thier ears.

[Jeff Putz]

The world does not revolve around the valley, believe it or not. There are regular technology companies all over the country where the real estate costs a lot less.

And guess what... companies want the foreign workers not because of the cost, but because there aren't enough "white boys" to fill the jobs they have. I've seen this over and over again here in the Midwest. No one ever wants to talk about that part. Sure, I'd love to hire a bunch of corn-fed Midwestern good ol' boys, but so few of them have the skills to do the jobs we need them for!

[relawson]

Nice try with the race baiting. This isn't about race, so knock this crap off. It's about jobs. Last time I checked the United States was a VERY multiracial country. The H-1b visa harms Americans of all races.

[Jeff Putz]

I'm not making it about race. It has nothing to do with race. My point is that there aren't enough "Americans" to fill the jobs.

[relawson]

You can get people in less populated places (like parts of the midwest) on a contract basis. But you won't get many people to pack up and move there unless it is a retirement or end of career decision, or if they are desperate. There aren't enough career options to make it a smart career decision. Even the H-1b visa holders aren't going to hang around for long.

I had to recently turn down a job in Wyoming that paid great money - $105 an hour and a 12 month contract. The problem is that they wanted me onsite 5 days a week for 12 months and to pay for all travel/lodging costs. There are no direct (or regular) flights so commuting is impossible (8-10 hours each leg to travel). I would however agree to rotate weeks onsite, but they wouldn't. You guys need to be more flexible, that's the bottom line. Most people won't uproot their family every 12 months and move to some random rural town around the country. If I were single I would probably be in Wyoming right now.

I am a foreign worker, and I have worked with both American and foreign engineers, and I have met with very bright people in both camps, and average people as well. I believe my salary and those of my foreign friends that I know are within the normal ranges for our position, so I don't think we classify as "cheap labor". My selection process was conducted via an interview in which both American and foreign workers have applied and I was chosen because I am slightly better than the other candidates with no respect to nationality (as far as I know).

I totally believe it's a demand and supply process. And the fact that there are hundreds of foreign workers employed by our company makes it hard to believe that all these jobs were fillable by American workers and that they preferred foreign ones. On the other hand I've been teaching in university as well, and most of those students that I have taught have landed jobs by the time I finished my masters degree. I don't think I am cheap labor with respect to my position, but may be I am cheap labor in comparison with people who have been in their position for 10 years doing pretty much the same thing and getting paid 10 times what I am getting paid. In such case, any sane employer will prefer me to the 10 year "experienced" guy. And in such a case, it doesn't really matter whether you're foreign or not, if you can do the job with 1/10th the cost, you will get, regardless of your nationality.

It could be just my personal experience. My company could be different, but I believe that's the case for any respectable company, and I believe that the notion that all foreign workers are "Cheap labor" is false especially in the high tech market.

With that said, I am with Americans regulating and choosing whatever is best for America, and I respect American law. For me it's an opportunity to gain experience, improve my income, and working with very skilled people. It's an opportunity that I've taken, just like the hundreds of thousands of Americans working outside the shores of the US. If the opportunity seizes to exist, I'll look elsewhere for another opportunity.

[BobN34]

I greatly appreciate this article. Because one of the greatest difficulties of telling people about H-1b, is that they dont want to believe the government is corrupt, that the media is full of lies, and most of all, they dont want to beleive it could happen to them. But in the last few months, the average citizen has watched

- the economy crash

- executives who made millions making bad bets (like AIG), get over a hundred billion in taxpayer welfare checks then phone in demands from more from posh resorts

- auto executives come begging for welfare in private jets

- unemployment rise to the highest level in 25 years (today)

- An Illinois governor selling the president elect's senate seat like a pez dispenser on ebay

Americans are no longer blind to what an absolute SEWER the morals of our business and government leaders wallow in.

After giving trillions to business to 'save jobs' and seeing huge public works programs proposed for jobs, proposals that very well could bankrupt this country, you have the nerve to propose stuffing foreign workers into a program proven full of fraud

How you can look in the mirror, I'll never know. You judge the skills of American tech workers when your only skill is shining shoes of tech executives

[kimb1]

Oracle VP Hoffman is a key lobbyist for more H-1b. Larry Ellison is among the richest men in the world, squandering his weath on the largest yacht in the world, private fighter jets, and who knows what.

Follow me on this: When Oracle says they need "skilled" H-1b from overseas rather than hiring new U.S. grads and training them, they are expecting some other employer to have hired a new grad and given them the on-the-job training. Oracle and Microsoft can afford to establish high intensity 3-month "boot camp" training programs that provide the skills needed by Oracle and Microsoft. They could subsidize this, and draw many qualifed Americans if these programs reasonably led to careers at these companies.

But instead Gates and Ellison find it more cost effective to "lobby" Congress to increase the flood of Americans - even during the worst recession in 50 years. These people have no shame. Clearly the problem is that Gates and Ellison are TOO CHEAP to hire and train Americans. (Neither company typically attends career fairs at CSU campuses.)

Someone please explain why Congress should not suspend th H-1b program and tell Gates and Ellison, "I think you have the resources to privide the training to hire Americans rather then expecting employers overseas to bear the expense of training your workforce."