Congress is holding H-1B boost 'hostage,' says Oracle lobbyist

HOLLYWOOD, Calif.--The politically explosive debate over millions of undocumented U.S. workers appears to be smothering high-tech companies' attempts to obtain higher allotments of H-1B temporary visas and green cards, Oracle's head lobbyist suggested Wednesday.

Any "rational" politician understands those longstanding pleas to bring in more skilled foreigners for gaps where no qualified Americans fit, said Robert Hoffman, who also serves as co-chairman of a coalition of high-tech companies called Compete America that lobbies for heightened visa caps. By his estimation, if that issue were severed from the rest of the immigration debate, it would "easily" sail through Congress and become law.

"As long as Congress holds us hostage to the broader question of comprehensive immigration reform, we're toast," Hoffman said during a panel discussion at the Tech Policy Summit here.

Last year, of course, a proposed H-1B cap increase found itself a casualty of a far more sweeping immigration bill that died amid myriad political clashes. In recent weeks, a number of standalone H-1B proposals have surfaced, proposing anywhere from doubling to tripling the annual cap, but Hoffman seemed pessimistic about the prospects of any such changes, even on a short-term basis, while the broader divisions persist.

The frustrating result of that political skirmish, Hoffman added, is that this year's class of foreign graduates from American universities most likely won't even have a shot at jobs with technology companies in the United States.

That's because the high-tech industry predicts that, when the petition window for next year's crop of visas opens next week, the number of applications will rapidly exceed the cap, just as it did last year, potentially months before the new graduates even have their requisite degrees in hand. The H-1B program allows foreigners with at least a bachelor's degree in their area of specialty to work for a company in the United States for up to six years. The annual cap is currently 65,000 new visas--not including renewals and an additional 20,000 for foreigners with advanced degrees from U.S. universities.

The H-1B set-up, of course, is not without controversy. A group of American computer programmers called the Programmer's Guild has for years advanced a platform that H-1Bs devalue and displace American workers and that the "shortage" of qualified personnel claimed by technology companies isn't real. Some politicians, including Senators Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) and Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), have raised concerns about abuse and proposed requiring U.S. employersto do more to certify that they're giving Americans first dibs on openings before hiring foreigners.

Hoffman, for his part, said his impression is that the idea of allowing more skilled, potentially American university-educated foreigners to work in the United States is really not so contentious, either among politicians or among citizens more broadly.

"If you ask the general public, what's your position on skilled immigration, they'll say, 'Yeah, sure, why not?'" he said. "As opposed to (when you ask) shall we give undocumented immigrants a path to citizenship? And (you hear), 'No, heavens no.'"

[djchrysys]

I say if no American fits

If we dont have any one local why not train people, HELLO solve the unemployment problem by putting people to work wow what a novel idea. OH yeah thats right Americans want to get paid real money not peanuts thats why the companies want to import workers or export all of our jobs. Come on wake up put Americans to work not out of work solve our problems at home not from bringing more problems into the situation, we need to take care of the people here not bring in more.

[joelam888]

Money just doesn't fly from the sky

Employers aren't yet dumb enough to pay top money to bottom tier workers.

The fact is you can impossibly train that guy who's flipping burgers in McDonald's.

[The_Decider]

These aren't fast food jobs

You can't just give a guy a few weeks training and call him a computer scientist or engineer.

If these people on the unemployment line have the attributes and desire, they can get a BS in Electrical Engineering.

Of course if they did, they probably would have already.

[gps-dude]

Killing the Goose that lays the Golden Egg

Study after study confirms that there are not enough Science and engineering workers or students in the US, yet we face this situation where people who are making positive contributions to the American society are turned away.

As many as 50% of engineering students in our universities, and 60% of our doctoral students are foreign students, here on non-immigrant visas. If there arent enough H1s to go around, these students will go back to their home countries or countries that value their skills more than the US.

The end result will not be better paying tech jobs for Americans, but no jobs at all for Americans, as these high tech jobs follow folks who are qualified to do so in other economies. Turning aways H1s will be like killing the goose that lays the golden egg for America.

[mofner]

Myths and red herrings

"Study after study confirms that there are not enough Science and engineering workers or students in the US"...
Nope. Study after study shows the opposite:
1) The Urban Institute
2) The Sloan Foundation
3) The Rand Corporation
4) Harvard University
5) Duke University

1) The Urban Institute
Urban Institute report disputes shortage of STEM grads.
Into the Eye of the Storm: Assessing the Evidence on Science and
Engineering Education, Quality, and Workforce Demand http://news.cenews.com/article.asp?id=1035&page=1
http://tinyurl.com/37omtw < - - - the report http://tinyurl.com/3yohn9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kVA5UA38nE

2) The Sloan Foundation
Annual Report ? Education and Careers in Science and Technology http://www.sloan.org/report/2006/sciwork.shtml

3) The Rand Corporation
Is the Federal Government Facing a Shortage of Scientific and Technical Personnel? http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB1505/index1.html
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/2005/RB1505.pdf

4) Harvard University
How and Why Government, Universities, and Industry Create
Domestic Labor Shortages of Scientists and High-Tech Workers http://www.nber.org/~peat/PapersFolder/Papers/SG/NSF.html

5) Duke University
Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2111347,00.asp


"The end result will not be better paying tech jobs for Americans, but no jobs at all for Americans, as these high tech jobs follow folks who are qualified to do so in other economies"...
There is no evidence of this at all. Scare tactics.

[gps-dude]

Stereotypical comments about training folks and poorly paid H1s

Poorly paid H1s is a stereotype that folks would do good to get rid off ! Come to the silicon valley and see what a consultant on an H1 makes.. An average guy/gal with a 4-5 years of experience may make as much as $100K, in addition to full health insurance, employer assistance in higher education, flexible hours, great 401K plans..

Yet, when I go to college job fairs for my company, almost 50-60% of the students I see are foreign kids on F1. If these great benefits dont attract Americans to become engineers, what will ?

Even if an aggressive program is launched *today* to train more American engineers, it takes FOUR years to train an engineer in basic software engineering, 2 more to get him/her to a level where he/she can work as a systems architect.

If H1s are denied to american companies for 4 years, they WILL Offshore these jobs to cheaper locales. Afterall, what would a company prefer more ?

A foreign engineer with a masters/bachelors from an American college working in the US, getting paid in $$ or a foreign engineer with a masters/bachelors from an American college working in China/India/Russia ?

After all, Oracle, EVDO, Vista, Java development can be done just as well from Chindia as from the US !

Fewer H1s/Green Cards for technology workers will WIPE OUT the American tech industry and make industry leaders relocate a substantial part of their operations overseas.

[mofner]

Stereotypical industry disinformation

Are we really STILL arguing in 2008 over whether H-1B workers get paid less on average? Indian consultancy executives, offshoring/H-1B advocates, Alan Greenspan, and others have already conceded this point:

Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) vice president Phiroz Vandrevala (admitting that his company enjoys a competitive advantage because of its extensive use of foreign workers in the United States on H-1B and L-1 visas): "Our wage per employee is 20-25% lesser than US wage for a similar employee," Vandrevala said. "Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. It's a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and there's nothing wrong in that." ("US visas are not a TCS-specific issue," Businessworld (India) magazine, June 2003)
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-09/i-rss090606.php

Professor Ravi Aron of the USC Marshall School of Business, an authority on offshore outsourcing (and pro-H1B):
"Can we do without the H1-B program? If you're willing to pay enough, certainly."
http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/6482

Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the United States Federal Reserve Board, March 2007
"If we open up a significant window for skilled workers, that would suppress the skilled-wage level and end the concentration of income."
http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/03/14/greenspan_let_more_skilled_immigrants_in

Marianne Kolbasuk McGee and Alice LaPlante
"MYTH: H-1B visas are a battle for the highest tier of talent--the world's best and brightest technologists".
http://www.informationweek.com/industries/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201200100&pgno=3


"Come to the silicon valley... An average guy/gal with a 4-5 years of experience may make as much as $100K"...
*Of course* an average guy/gal with a 4-5 years of experience MAY make AS MUCH AS $100K! In addition to using the used-car-saleman's "as much as", you fail to emphasize that silicon valley is the most expensive market in the country for IT talent AND for living expenses. What's the monthly rent on a crummy 3-bedroom apartment out there... $2,400 a month?

"Oracle, EVDO, Vista, Java development can be done just as well from Chindia as from the US !"
If this is true, then why don't these companies just move there lock, stock and barrel? If this is true, then WHY DO THESE COMAPNIES SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR LOBBYING FOR AN INCREASE IN THE H-1B CAP?!

[smiller987]

H1-Bs

gps-dude:

I am just one case, but I am a recent graduate from a US university with a MS in information systems (fwiw, finished this past fall with a 4.0 gpa). Over the past three months, I have applied to nearly 50 jobs in the SF Bay area. I have not even been contacted once for an interview. I only apply for positions for which I am well qualified. I have yet to see any actual formal studies that support the idea that there is a real shortage, and my personal experience suggests that quite the opposite is true. Hyperbolic statements made in support of expanding the H1-B program (e.g., "Fewer H1s/Green Cards for technology workers will WIPE OUT the American tech industry ..."), while they may sway the uninformed, serve to convince me that there is no factual evidence to support an increase. It is nonsensical to suggest that the American tech industry will be "wiped out" if more workers are not imported. If there were actual proof that there were a real shortage (e.g., rapidly rising wages, low unemployment, formal studies - not merely opinion pieces referred to as "studies"), I would support increases. But, wages are not rising rapidly. Unemployment is certainly not decreasing. There is no real evidence offerred; just hyperbolic declarations of a crisis, and absurd statements that there are no "qualified" Americans. I find it very strange indeed that Americans who go to the very same American universities and get the very same degrees as the foreign students are not viewed as "qualified" while the foreign students are.

[ToddWBeaver]

Not universal

Your experiences are hardly representative. My experience is H-1B visa holders have less training and less experience but are also willing to work for less and are also more willing to work for poor bosses. They undermine wages. The employers get what they pay for.

[maguro_01]

US citizens prevented from competing in the job market

If citizens and existing Green Card holders could compete with the indentured H1-B's - many of whom are low-balled too - then the citizens would make a lower salary in a marketplace. That's fine - there is a world market and most Americans are due a reduction in our now inflated standard of living anyway. Salaries are not going to keep up with inflation at all in the coming few years.

However US citizens cannot compete in this non job market that companies have lobbied for themselves in Washington. The more distorted the market is and the less likely US students can get any sort of career out of it, the more US students bail. The companies won't call them too smart in Washington, they'll call them too stupid and lobby for more visas still. That makes more students bail and is a downward spiral giving us actual US undevelopment.

Indeed we are lucky when we draw the best and brightest as colleages and neighbors, but most of the hundreds of thousands companies are lobbying for are really average.

There was no reason for companies and the present US administration to turn the welcome development of China and India in to a zero sum game with US development and lobby to get the taxpayers here to subsidize their own decline.

Our pay-to-play Washington political system is at the root of many dire US problems - the chickens are coming home to roost. That includes part of the impending real decline of US tech and innovation as well as the disastrous decline of Brand Wall Street. For the former we can hope for some benefit from dollar decline.

[mofner]

Typical unbalanced article

Typical media article on the subject: sympathetic to the industry lobbyist's argument, giving only 1 paragraph out of 9 to opponents of raising the H-1B cap and treating the opposition as a footnote ("is not without controversy").

If the opposition is only a footnote, then why - with all the millions of dollars that Microsoft and the rest throw into lobbying - do they find it so hard to convince the elected officials to raise the cap?

Plus, please read my replies to gps-dude's misleading comments.

[garyn1]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Let them hold it hostage. These companies need to be paying
Americans a living wage instead of trying to hire some hindu for
25 rupees an hour. We spend a fortune on education in this
country and year after year after year cry about pushing math
and science in the classroom. And for what? So our kids can't
get a job in their own country? Shut up Oracle. Shut up
Microsoft, and shut up anyone else who wants to cry about the
fact that they can't line their pockets, or their multiple luxury
homes with gold because they have to spread the corporate
wealth amongst their fellow countrymen.

[joelam888]

It's about talent, fool!

I'm sure Oracle and Microsoft will fight to hire your kids if they're A students from A colleges.

Unfortunately, they sound like C students who can barely graduate at best.

[cpushrink1]

I have no problem Accepting Less

I will agree, while I do not have the experience of some. I do posses more experience then others in the IT field. At the risk of being besieged by others comments, I choose to speak out.

I have been working the hardware and software tech sector for the last 13 years. It is only recently that I am completing my degree to say that I am qualified to do such work.

I have completed a lot of volunteer work with references from many people and organizations. This would tend to say that I have done my homework and have garnered sufficient experience. However, when I submit my applications, qualifications, references and military preference. I still seemed to be over looked.

Whats more, is that I submit a income requirements sheet with all my applications stating below the median pay scale of the position.

I make call backs, and tend to get the run a round. Most often the person I am speaking to on the line is of foreign descent.

Can anyone tell me why foreigners with less experience, no preferences, lack of references, receive a position before me?

I have talked to a plethora of other students who have stated the same position.

Is it time for a new study, explaining the amount of American graduates vs. foreign graduates that gain employment first?

Unfortunately for us graduates, we do not have much of a choice, but to build our own companies, with other graduates. It is sad that the American students pay many thousands of dollars to provide proof of experience through a BSCS, only to be looked over for foreigners.

You may state that it may be my personality, however, the people I have worked with and for loved me. At my last position they hated to see me go, however, the IT had to hire due to affirmative action. Regardless of my qualifications and Military preference.

Lets address that I am one of only a few. I would gladly chalk it up to that. However, I have met many graduates in the same position.

It is my position; there is no lack of IT position in the US. However, the problem is in hiring preference.

[suyts]

Simple math.

More imported workers in the tech industry = lower wages for the workers in the tech industry.

[joelam888]

More talented imported workers = Fewer unqualified workers

<EOM>

[basraw]

Which general population?

This general population is probably the people you see on the streets with Jay Leno asking questions.
They don't know anything bout anything.


"If you ask the general public, what's your position on skilled immigration, they'll say, 'Yeah, sure, why not?'" he said.

[system001]

you're riggh about their general population

the average citizen does not want an increase in any of the visa programs, much less the h-1b program. people in general are tired of investing 2 or more years in college and not being able to get a decent paying job because of some foreign graduate took the job out from under them for far less money. all the h-1b program is for is to cater to the rich and give them cheaper labor. there is no shortage of american tech workers. there never has been a shortage of american tech workers.

[idonraja]

Good Discussion

Well there were some very good comments made by fellow readers. Here are my two cents. Many foreign students come to US for higher studies, its unfortunate that there are not many Americans going for masters or Phd's, in many cases these graduates end up taking jobs for less money, they have to use the H1B to stay in the country and work. Now if you take away the one option they have to go to work in USA then there will be repercussions. First of all what happens if the number of students coming to US declines? this will result in higher education costs for Americans and job losses universities and patent reductions at the universities. This might or might not be true but is sure logical and since 911 there is an increase in number of people opting for European or Canadian or Australian univs.

Well companies do misuse H1B but when you have MS and Phd doing bachelor degree holder's jobs the expectations are higher and they get disappointed many times when they see the BS graduates and the standard at many American univ has dropped. the companies face many other issues like losing employees to competitors etc....

All these other factors have an impact on how companies and H1B aspirants pursue this issue. If you need to improve salaries, there are many places where you can start. IT jobs pay very well. others are not even close.

Thanks,
Sschin

[joelam888]

Shut down H-1B loopholes = Restore H-1B reputation

While most H-1Bs are truly talented and make more than their local prevailing wage, nobody can deny that there are indeed some foolish workers and greedy employers who have been screwing up the reputation of the H-1B program.

[Mystigo]

Uh huh.

For years you have been saying that there are no problems with
the program and that everything is above board. You have
attacked, cajoled and denigrated anyone that does not side with
you and the employers, no matter what statistics have been
given, no matter how many specific cases of flat-out abuse have
been cited.

What epiphany has brought you here? Now we have a few bad
apples? Is that a ***** in the reality distortion field I am
detecting? What do we need to do to get you back to planet
Earth: that hiring cheap foreigners is what the H1B program is all
about.

[ed_dykes]

H-1B

Anyone out there awake and reading the news?

Most H-1B visas go to companies who use them to facilitate outsourcing to India and China. Why our Congress is foolishly pursuing policies that help eliminate jobs and reduce wages is strange. Any representative favoring the current H-1B program needs to be voted out of office and given a shot of reality.

We have young men coming back from Iraq looking for opportunities, and Congress wants to give away these opportunities?

The path to an H-1B visa:
* Graduate from a USA university paying out of state tuition
* Serve 4 years in the US military
* Then get your H-1B visa

[joelam888]

Most = how much?

Any stats?

Did you mean 100 out of 10,000?

[cpushrink1]

Method to Citizenship

I have always agreed with this theory. For those of you who have never served in this countries military. I really do not wish to hear your comments until you have.

I believe to be considered a US Citizen or given Citizenship, all foreign born individuals should be mandated to contribute to this country in some way. That includes serving in the military. I have known many who have done this exact thing and they have expressed to me that others should be mandated to comply with this.

Young foreigners come to our country and receive free education and gain citizenship not long after. They have never contributed to the country in any way. Yet there are hundreds of thousands of US born individuals who enter the military to receive similar benefits that non US citizens receive.

Is this fair that foreign born individuals come to the US and receive degrees, while many US born citizens can not afford to attend secondary educational institutions?

So I agree.

Make Citizenships and work visa's harder to obtain. Make it so that there is no advantage to US companies to export jobs, or to hire foriegn workers.

Lastly, make all individuals on Visa contribute the health of the US in some way.

Most of us have, they should as well.

[niceguy2931]

Can we get real ?

Can we get real and run our COUNTRY (not company ) correctly !! Where are our immigration laws like New Zealands--? which spell out what companies can do for the benefit of this nation?
And_______ where is our Dept of Planning? It's really a saloon out there !!!!

[inachu]

An H1B becomes an American citizen

So my mothers friend came here and was an H1B and finally after many many years of goign back to his country then back to USA he finally became a USA citizen. His company where he worked for many years then told him to train his replacements who were 5 H1B from India and if he doesnt train them then he is fired.

Needless to say going from H1B to USA citizen He felt the brunt forces directly and has been interviewed by many journalists. This truly is where American companies are abusing H1B people.

We truly do not need more H1B or L1 transfers in USA.

[suyts2]

I would be very interested in

more details to the story. Could you provide a name or perhaps a link to one of the stories? Perhaps the company's name? Thanks.

[system001]

what a con

you need to lie to someone who might believe you. there are currently 20 to 30 million out of work americans who would be more than happy to go back to school and then turn around and be hired by some tech company for the wages and benefits you talk about. the person you mentioned is one of the few very lucky. do not waste peoples time or insult their intelligence by lying to them.

[sunnywader]

Little discussed reasons...

I visit these message boards every now and then and I find it interesting seeing all these discussions about who gets paid more, yada! yada! Lets put that argument aside and for the sake of making my point lets even say H1/B's get paid 10% more and also get 20% coupons for all you can eat at McDonalds while they are on H1/B.

One of the reasons the Sultans of Software (Bill Gates, Larry Ellison...), technical managers, recruiting managers would still love the H-1/Bs is the 5-7 years involuntary employer bonding. I have been in the business long enough and on both sides of the aisle. I have seen it with my eyes, where a Ivy League PhD manager was deciding who to sponsor for Green Card based on their time sheets and vacation history for last 2 years. Since when did he switch from Computer Science to Immigration Law. It was pathetic and made me sick. I could later just quit, but unfortunately my H1 friends had to deal with it.

Think about it, through a immigrant visa sponsorship (H1 or whatever), the US Federal Government is in someway playing HR Manager who is also guranteeing that the employee will work like a monk for 5-7 year, ask few questions, show up on time (for 5-7 years), rarely demand a raise (demand being keyword), take few vacations and be willing to put in whatever hours he is asked to (and that is putting it mildly). Hell I can't even make my nephew show up the next morning to clean up my yard even though I promise him thrice a little extra. Reason is simple if the employee does not show that extra bonhomie for his employer, he does not only face the specter of loosing a job or his ability to pay his rent (etc...) but the specter of international deportation. Show me one profession in which the system is guaranteeing employee bonding.

Its a complex debate with many facets but one way to find out is delink the H1/B to the employer and make it a true guest worker program. Then see how much love the Sultants of HiTech industry have for the program.

[system001]

get a clue fool

yths and red herrings: reader comment from mofner
Posted on: March 27, 2008, 2:34 AM PDT
Story: Congress is holding H-1B boost 'hostage,' says Oracle lobbyist

"Study after study confirms that there are not enough Science and engineering workers or students in the US"...
Nope. Study after study shows the opposite:
1) The Urban Institute
2) The Sloan Foundation
3) The Rand Corporation
4) Harvard University
5) Duke University

1) The Urban Institute
Urban Institute report disputes shortage of STEM grads.
Into the Eye of the Storm: Assessing the Evidence on Science and
Engineering Education, Quality, and Workforce Demand http://news.cenews.com/article.asp?id=1035&page=1
http://tinyurl.com/37omtw < - - - the report http://tinyurl.com/3yohn9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kVA5UA38nE

2) The Sloan Foundation
Annual Report ? Education and Careers in Science and Technology http://www.sloan.org/report/2006/sciwork.shtml

3) The Rand Corporation
Is the Federal Government Facing a Shortage of Scientific and Technical Personnel? http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB1505/index1.html
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/2005/RB1505.pdf

4) Harvard University
How and Why Government, Universities, and Industry Create
Domestic Labor Shortages of Scientists and High-Tech Workers http://www.nber.org/~peat/PapersFolder/Papers/SG/NSF.html

5) Duke University
Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2111347,00.asp


"The end result will not be better paying tech jobs for Americans, but no jobs at all for Americans, as these high tech jobs follow folks who are qualified to do so in other economies"...
There is no evidence of this at all. Scare tactics

[Dr_Zinj]

H1-Bs should be slashed

For technology workers, only 10% of the numbers they are requesting should be allowed.

What these lobbyists are doing is trying to cause a glut in the supply of I.T. workers in an effort to torpedo I.T. wages. They are working for I.T. companies, and are NOT working for the betterment of people who actually perform I.T. services.

There's a real reason why stereo-types exist about H1-Bs; it's that they are true for the majority of cases. There is nothing wrong with the use of stereotypes. Stereotyping is a survival mechanism where the observation of conditions induces similar reactions when encountering those same conditions later. Stereotyping is only a problem when used all the time without objectively evaluating a situation - when it's safe to do so!

[FutureGuy]

IT wages are...

..some of the best in the country. I don't see H1b's making a significat dent in wages. If there aren't enough h1b visa or as you suggest the wages start to climb as a result of lack of availabity after "h1b visas are slashed" most companies would bump up outsourcing to stay competitive, those jobs would permanently leave US, at the least H1b visa holders pay taxes and into the underfunded social security system even though many wouldn't see a penny come out of it.

[kalaen53]

H-1B ISSUE

If any of Senator Grassley's staff is watching this forum, I have a few words to add in this debate.
I am a contract worker for Verizon Communications, a former employee with advanced computer skills and extensive certifications. After two years of unemployment and countless updates to Careerbuilder, Monster and Texas Workforce and only 10 interviews for full time employment, I am accepting employment with the federal government, service to be overseas for the most part. I will no longer be working in my career area of the last 25 years; there are no jobs in the DFW area for dedicated citizens like me.
Yet for the H1B's there are plenty of positions. In my current contract position at Verizon, at least 30% of workforce (contractors and permanent employees)come from Asia.
I have seen the handwriting on the wall; the bottom line doesn't include me.

[FutureGuy]

for all the critics

..I am no fan of body shopper's who get in people on h1b's who are not qualified. But having said that without h1b's US technology industry (one of the handful of industries that actually brings in dollars through exports) would not be anywhere near where it is today. There are a lot of folks who claim that h1bs are not needed and there are plenty of qualified Americans to go around. There are plenty of surveys that point both ways, lets ignore them. Look at the fundamentals, IT wages in US are by far some of the best in the world also some of the best in US among other professions, why do you think that is the case? If h1bs are creating a glut as many suggest (it would be a glut if there are already enough qualified folks in US) IT salaries would have free fallen, haven't seen that happen. Would salaries go up faster if h1bs are stopped? absolutely but only temporarily as most companies would simply start to outsource more to stay competitive, after all its a global economy. Once a position is outsource its gone forever, h1bs pay taxes, pay into the underfunded social security and medicare systems even though many won't see a dime come out of it. Stop being greedy, the h1b system is one of the main reason US IT industry is thriving; don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, though I would definitely lobby to prevent the system from being exploited.

[gps-dude]

No myths/red herrings, Plain and Simple facts

One can just as easily dismiss the websites that you linked here as coming from anti immigration shills. Fact of the matter is that, government statistics point out that a full 45% of all engineers graduating from US schools are foreign students. In the past, American companies have been able to use this talent. The arbitrary 65K cap will leave no option for this year, and last years students to leave the US.

Please look at the following link to figure out the actual percentages:~
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/c2/c2s2.htm#c2s23

"Foreign Student Enrollment

Foreign graduate student enrollment in S&E grew from 79,900 in 1985 to 154,900 in 2003 before declining through 2005. Despite the decline, the number of foreign S&E graduate students in 2005 (146,700) was higher than in 2001. Foreign students increased from 20% to 25% of all S&E graduate students from 1985 to 2005 (appendix table 2-22Excel.). The concentration of foreign enrollment was highest in engineering (45%), computer sciences (43%), physical sciences (40%), and mathematics (37%). "

As for saying that jobs will leave the US, the new Microsoft center in Vancouver perhaps does not exist in your fantasy world. It very much does in a world where top notch talent is being thrown out of the US.

Think about it, Boeing does not build planes in India or China because they have cheap workers there.. They build planes in the US because they have a critical mass of engineers, skilled technicians and research centers who together create the echo system needed to build planes.

If foreign workers are thrown out, our universities suffer from a lack of students, there are big reductions in our workforce - It follows that the industry will move where it can get the work done.

Fewer H1s means an even greater cost advantage to an engineer working in India. Who do you think is going to win that competition ?

[opine08]

below average population is the reason

Tech jobs usually require an average or above average understanding of logic and math. But if you take any country - US or India or any other country ,they have a vast majority of the population that is below average when it comes to this. This doesnt mean this population is good for nothing - they could be good at starting small business or some other skill. The reasons for this could be just a lack of basic IQ (biological) or just lack of opportunities (socioeconomic) while growing up.
So if you put this in context you can now easily see that no country would have the numbers needed to satisfy all the so-called "tech" jobs out there. Even India faces a huge shortage of "skilled labor". To conclude H1-B visas will be needed for a long time to come. American economy is based on the individual trying to get as much as the market can offer him. It is upto an individual to squeeze the market as much as they can. If that squeezing stops at 50k then thats what that job/indivisual is worth. Artificially trying to put a minimum wage or some cap for so-called "tech" jobs and visas doesnt make any sense. Every industry is changing to modern day internet trends - advertising , entertainment you name it. Tech industry is no different. You need to wake up and realize that the world is different from 20 years ago and socialism and communism have already failed and been buried.