Bill Gates to Congress: Let us hire more foreigners

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates urged Congress to commit to increased visa caps and greater investments in research and education during an appearance before the U.S. House of Representatives Science and Technlogy Committee.

(Credit: Anne Broache/CNET News.com)

WASHINGTON--For the second year in a row, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates ventured to Capitol Hill and urged Congress to let more foreign-born engineers work in the United States and to direct larger numbers of tax dollars to research and education.

Just as he did around the same time last year before a U.S. Senate committee, Gates on Wednesday contended America's competitiveness in the global economy is "at risk." He said Congress, the administration, and the next president must commit to overhauling immigration policy and encouraging both public and private research investment.

"It makes no sense to educate people in our universities, often subsidized by U.S. taxpayers, and then insist they return home," he told the House of Representatives Science and Technology Committee during a two-hour hearing.

The hearing was convened, and Gates invited, to mark the committee's 50th anniversary. The occasion alone foreshadowed an exchange of pleasantries that consumed most of the event.

For example, Committee Chairman Bart Gordon (D-Tenn.) requested advice, from one father of a 7-year-old daughter to another, about what sort of hardware and software might help her adapt to the new world. (Gates, for the record, gave a whimsical endorsement of the Internet's power to answer all those questions that his parents would have had to leave unanswered back in the day.)

And Republican Ranking Member Ralph Hall (R-Texas), who posed a number of questions about skills needed by engineers in the tech space, made Gates a practically unheard-of concession: "You can take any or all of those (questions) or none of them."

Members of the House Science and Technology Committee listen to Bill Gates' advice on getting children more interested in those fields.

(Credit: Anne Broache/CNET News.com)

One notable exception to the friendly reception, however, came when Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) used his five allotted minutes to grill Gates on the merits of visa cap increases. "Will it not hurt those countries and will it also not depress wages for people in our own country?" the congressman asked.

"No," the Microsoft chairman responded sharply. "These top people are going to be hired. It's just a question of where."

Rohrabacher said he's not talking about "top" students. He's concerned about the B and C American students who "fought for our country and kept it free." There's no excuse, he argued, for displacing those people with "A students from India."

An audibly irritated Gates replied that when companies like Microsoft hire top foreign engineers, they create jobs for B and C American students around them. If Microsoft weren't able to hire those top engineers in the United States, it'd be doing so in other countries and surrounding them with native B and C students, he said.

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Rohrabacher argued that if companies like Microsoft simply raised wages, they'd find plenty of Americans lining up for those jobs.

"No, it's not an issue of raising wages," Gates retorted. "These jobs are very, very high paying jobs."

Earlier in his remarks, Gates said Microsoft was unable to hire one-third of the foreign-born candidates it wished to hire because of too few H-1B visas. In an attempt to show a shortage of qualified Americans to fill his company's posts, he pointed to a 2008 National Science Foundation study that found in 2005, 59 percent of all doctoral degrees and 43 percent of all higher-education degrees in engineering and science are awarded to temporary residents.

Gates also suggested the U.S. government's stance toward high-skilled foreigners is absurd in comparison with other countries. He pointed out Microsoft's decision last year to open an outpost just over the Canadian border from Washington as a sort of refuge for foreign-born employees for whom it couldn't obtain U.S. visas.

Rohrabacher's badgering isn't just talk: He has sponsored a bill that would require employers to prove they're not displacing American workers and fulfill other obligations before obtaining H-1Bs, as have two U.S. senators.

Such efforts enjoy support from groups representing American computer programmers, such as the Programmers Guild, which continue to argue that the worker shortages described by Gates and other high-tech executives in recent years are bogus.

Ron Hira, a public policy professor at the Rochester Institute of Technology and author of the book Outsourcing America, told CNET News.com on Wednesday that it's wrong for Gates to imply that most H-1Bs are going to the brightest foreigners with advanced degrees and earning them big bucks. According to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the typical H-1B holder holds a bachelor's degree and is making a median salary of $50,000. And the same NSF report referenced by Gates says less than 1 percent of H-1B recipients in computer-related professions even hold doctoral degrees, and about 44 percent hold master's degrees.

Still, politicians with a skeptical view of visa expansion appear to be largely the exception in Congress. Other members from both political parties at Wednesday's hearing suggested Gates' push for a more liberal immigration policy was right on.

Whether those long-sought changes will occur this year remains unclear. Attempts to overhaul the immigration system collapsed last year, and with them went efforts to hike the number of H-1B visas and green cards.

"These top people are going to be hired. It's just a question of where."

--Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates

To be fair, Gates emphasized that changes in immigration alone aren't enough. He repeatedly called for improvements in training American teachers and students in science and technology fields at all levels, from kindergartens to universities.

Few in Congress seem to disagree with Gates' push for greater investments in research and education. Last year, the president signed a measure called the America Competes Act into law, which calls for pouring some $33.6 billion into a bevy of federal science, technology and research programs. Members of the Science Committee said they would be pressuring appropriations committees to ensure the target funding amounts are fulfilled in the final budget.

Throughout the hearing, Gates repeatedly received praise for his work through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. But at least one member, Rep. Laura Richardson (D-Calif.), who represents what she called the "challenging communities" of Watts, Compton, and Long Beach, clearly wanted Gates to be even more generous. She pressed the billionaire philanthropist to commit to sponsoring more scholarships with guaranteed jobs at companies like his waiting after a university degree is obtained.

Gates said he agrees scholarships are important, but he wasn't willing to go as far as Richardson had wished.

"There's just no shortage of jobs being offered to those top students in computer science," he said. "They are highly sought after."

[amandachuck]

why not hire and train?

frankly, I am tired of hearing this lament. it used to be that <br />companies in the USA would hire and train people for their jobs. <br />Whether it was industry, science or entertainment. Now they just <br />want to hire people who already have experience, as if that <br />experience comes miraculously from the either. If MS wants more <br />qualified people, invest in them. And I don't mean building <br />another castle at Stanford.

[FutureGuy]

You mean send them to collage..

..in a global ecomomy no company can afford to send people to collage. Not sure if its the goverment or the easy going culture but most Americans don't opt to study sciences or engineering, causing a shortage of qualified candidates to further train, if US want's to stay competitive it has to find talent somewhere.

[Renegade Knight]

Bingo

You want good people, train them.

[vapid2005]

You missed the point...

I registered for an account on News.com just to reply to your comment. You're missing the point Bill Gates is stating entirely.<br /><br />Put yourself in a business owner's shoes. Why would your company pay extra money to train and educate an American when he can hire a more talented foreign worker for the same amount of money? No business is going to spend more money just to get a "US Citizen" working for them -- it makes no sense.<br /><br />He's giving Congress a chance to fix this problem. They first have to realize a problem exists. <br /><br />The other option is to close the door on foreigners and they'll build the next multi-billion dollar web starts outside the US, then the US citizens, whom you praise for having some sort of 'higher rank' in society, won't have a job at all.<br /><br />Cheers.

[bildan2]

MS should train their own workers.

In response to Bill Gates outrageous plea for more H1B visas, I'd suggest that Congress deny Microsoft any of them by not renewing the current ones.<br /><br />Further, US companies should be required to train their own workers at their own expense. If they want to 'beat' other countries in intellectual achievements, they should educate their workers well.<br /><br />I hate to borrow a Russian term, but many US business leaders have become what they called Klepto-Capitalists who think they 'deserve' money due to their privileged position in society and owe nothing in return.<br /><br />Before Bill Gates asks for more H1B visas, he needs to spend some time reflecting on what it means to be an American and the duties and responsibilities associated with that concept.

[The_Decider]

Train them to do what?

This isn't a semi-skilled trade. You can't simply take a guy off the street and train them to write OS'es or word processors.<br /><br />To be fair to MS, they do offer a lot of scholarships but as far as I know, they do not have job offers attached to them.<br /><br />Computer Science is a highly skilled field that few can successfully complete, asking a corporation to bear the burden of training, even one as rich as MS is asking way to much.

[joelam888]

Hard to train college dropouts or ITT Tech quality

They need mentors to be with them for a few years before they can actually work independently. Yes, my team has a couple of them.

[joelam888]

Fact: H-1B vs. American C students/dropouts

Fact: H-1B vs. American C students/dropouts

[jennemede]

It's not about training.

How are people missing the point here? Gates is saying people who GET these degrees (who have NO experience at all) are TOP OF THE CLASS, cream of the crop and 60% of these top scorers are FOREIGNERs. What are young American grads NOT doing to be in the top 60%?

[Fil0403]

Why not read well and stick to the point?

Frankly, I am tired too of hearing this anti-Gates/Microsoft comments. He is asking the Congress to let companies (Microsoft included) hire more people. Isn't that what you/we want afterall?

[garyn1]

What he means is....

What Bill means is "we can't find enough Americans to do the job <br />for 25 pesos an hour."

[Meerkat71]

The truth is...

Most American kids expect a mega salary on leaving high school, and they don't want to start at the bottom. You have to start somewhere making nothing to get to the top, for heaven's sake you can't just jump to the top, if it was that easy there'd be no poverty anywhere.<br /><br />Besides the "peso" people is doing all the work that Americans think are below them.

[lgarcia1978]

When did that happen...

As an American myself, I don't remember any American doing a job for 25 pesos. Firstly, we as citizens of this country don't want to do those jobs and at the same time want to blame the ones who are doing it.

[joelam888]

Entry-level salary of Micosoft is 70-90k

It's Seattle, so that's still a lot to college kids.<br /><br />Don't tell us it equals to 25 pesos unless the USD really drops to that level, LOL!!!

[mistakemaker]

"Qualified" <= 30 yrs old

.

[CompEng]

Not so much

You hire an older employee for their experience, especially outside of particular programming languages. You hire a RCG for a different reason. An older employee must have accumulated wisdom an experience to justify their job, because they're generally paid more.

[joelam888]

"Qualified" = Know C#/Java, not COBOL

It's not about age, afterall.

[shingwong2]

Not really

As far as I dislike the H1B scam and abuse, 30 is not that old and the most productive people are at least 30 due to experience.<br /><br />MS want to hire people with formal training (college) rather than self taught programmer. I once knew an excellent device driver developer that wast denied a job in MS because his undergrad degree was chemical engineering.<br /><br />The best software guy I know came from EE and ME, they see the big picture rather than a couple lines of code and the fancy "object oriented" methods.

[plee9]

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher's comment

"Will it not hurt those countries and will it also not depress wages for people in our own country?"<br /><br />Oh my god. since when did a US senator care about whether other countries are hurt? <br /><br />This is what's wrong with this country. old republicans with outdated thoughts trying to claim that companies should hire only americans.<br /><br />talents exist everywhere, not just in america. companies should be able to hire whomever they please in order to compete against other companies, especially foreign companies. it's not a matter of favoritism towards foreign students. if there are talented american students, they should be hired too. it's a matter of choice. companies should at least have that choice, this republican is fighting that ability to choose.

[Leria]

There comes a time when you have to look out

For your own country. This lady has a point: if this happens, it will depress wages for people in the United States and will lead to the United States not leading in the world anymore.<br /><br />It's a known fact that foreign born people are more willing to take a lower wage, even UNDER THE MINIMUM WAGE, because the companies can hold their visa status over them and get them to do that.<br /><br />Secondly, the reason that 'talented American students' are not getting this education is simple: IT IS TOO ******* EXPENSIVE!<br />In order to get my certifications for a job with an IT company, I would have had to get a loan for a little under 30,000 dollars.... way too expensive. They need to cut down on the prices for education and start looking at these prices that different colleges are charging, because I think they are doing a little bit of price gouging.<br /><br />I have no problem with foreign workers over here in the United States.... but it should be 'American citizens first!', just like China, Russia, and almost all other countries do.

[Meerkat71]

and who gains from all this

The USA, in the form of company taxes. It quite simple, the more successful a company is, the higher the turn-over the higher the amount of tax paid.<br /><br />Ever wondered where your free education comes from? How bout you have to pay a $1000.00 a year for a public school, what would you say then?

[davemesaaz]

There are Natvist Strains in Both parties but the Union are stronger w/ Dem

Before you paint all Republicans with the same brush Union are restricting all types of immigration skilled and unskilled. <br /><br />There are nativist sentiments in both parties

[Ice Moose]

One-sided story

Weren?t the most part of Bill Gate's speech actually about teaching American kids math and science and government funding of the basic research?<br /><br />Hiring more foreign-born skilled workers was proposed as a complimentary measure, not the ultimate solution.<br /><br />Though I suppose it wouldn't make the headlines then.<br /><br />Journalism is indeed the second oldest profession.

[shingwong2]

TRUE, it is partly our fault

We should have spend more in education instead of the darn war against WMD

[dascha1]

Simple Stimulus Math

This may be off by a few cents/dollar-<br /><br />58,000,000,000 minus 100,000,000 (for retirement) divided by <br />300,000,000 (US taxpayers) equals $193/person (US Dollars). <br />Then again he could also give to the rest of the world for his <br />reasons.

[keith.r.benedict]

"It makes no sense..."

"It makes no sense to educate people in our universities, often subsidized by U.S. taxpayers, and then insist they return home,"<br /><br />Fine. So stop educating them. Our colleges are already overcrowded. Stop granting foreign student visa's (or limit them) and it solves three problems:<br /><br />1) We don't have to worry about subsidizing the education of foreign students<br /><br />2) We don't have to worry about foreign students going home and making their country more competitive than ours when they finish school<br /><br />3) We have more space for US-born students

[rickerduarte]

From the front line

The problem isn't with undergraduate education - which is <br />where the overcrowding is. The issue is with graduate education <br />- people receiving Master and doctoral degrees. Almost all of <br />the research performed at universities these days is performed <br />by graduate students, which are primarily foreigners. Why <br />foreigners? Because the typical American in science or <br />engineering isn't going to give up a lucrative paycheck from <br />industry (40-60K+) with their B.S degree to work for ~$20K for <br />3-5 years in order to get their graduate degree. Start investing <br />more in graduate education for U.S. citizens besides just <br />scholarship programs for the cream of the crop and then more <br />americans will make the decision to pursue advanced degrees.<br /><br />What makes me qualified to say all this? I'm a 5th year U.S. <br />citizen PhD student and so is my husband, both in the <br />sciences/engineering. We are far below our peers in terms of <br />income and quality of living because we made the decision to <br />pursue an advanced degree - on a purely financial basis, it's not <br />clear that an advanced degree is worth it - you don't get the <br />benefits of being an employee (like retirement benefits, family <br />leave policies, etc) when you're a graduate student.

[plee9]

That sounds more like what China would do.

That sounds more like what China would do. wow. I thought we were living in a democratic society.

[joelam888]

International students are A grade students

US College quality will drop hard if they're replaced by American born C/D grade students.

[shingwong2]

We make $ from foreign students

They pay out of state tuition that is usually 3x as much. I used to pay that.

[krosavcheg]

stupid idea

if the US doeas that, all it will gain is more space for mediocre students. foreign students are so much better than american students -- who are lazy f*cks anyway, and who care more about football and beer than advanced programming

[Dstruve]

He forgot to mention

That although hes going for the brightest.<br /><br />Doctors are thrown into the mix of h1b visas and its a lottery so the best are not necessarily picked.<br /><br />Bill gates is a big liar.

[jll6607]

You forgot to think

And why there is such lottery system?<br /><br />Because the quote is filled up on the first day of application! Isn?t that Bill?s point? There are 20,000 for applicant with advanced degree and even that is used up pretty quickly.

[lgarcia1978]

Talent is like Money...

This argument made by Mr. Gates is valid. I was of the same nature, Americans first, then foreigners. I am a patriotic American and love this country, and that is why I can speak the bad about it.<br /><br />What good is being patriotic, if you can't speak the wrong the senators are doing or the harm they are causing.<br /><br />Let's not fool anyone; America is losing its edge. It is absolutely true of him (Bill Gates) and the way I look at it is "Talent like Money goes where it is required and will STAY there if it is respected." This is Capitalism at its best. <br /><br />The trouble with the country and has been over the past decade, is the government, it is out there to rob the citizens, and the citizens are busy deciding who should be voted off The Apprentice or American Idol. <br /><br />Every day I think of how the founding fathers of my country are turning in their graves. What they set out to make this country and what it has turned into. Greed has spread into the very DNA of us, including me.<br /><br />Finally, Yes Mr. Gates has a valid point to make. ?They will get hired, the question is Where?? If America absolutely believes it is the land of the free and home of the brave, then I say let them (foreigners) come.

[keith.r.benedict]

Ridiculous

Blah. Stop educating them. Let their respective countries do the educating and hiring. Do that and you don't have to worry about America losing its edge. There's a reason they come here for their educations rather than staying home--and it's not the cost. It's the quality.<br /><br />This is NOT capitalism at its best. This is capitalism at its worst. The only way for us to compete with these people is to lower our own standard of living. I'm not willing to do that and I think most Americans probably feel similarly.<br /><br />It's like the NAFTA backers saying they are free-marketers. Gimme a break. NAFTA is not about the free market. It's about lowering the cost of labor for big-business so they can increase their profit margins so they can increase share prices for their shareholders.<br /><br />Again, the only way Americans can compete with our trade partners is to lower our standard of living down to the level of our trade partners. If you want America to become a 3rd world country, then continue with your absurd line of reasoning.

[owzark127]

Worst Idea...

Save money by getting foreign engineers... bad idea. This isn't like 10 years ago where the US had a dominant role in the engineering fields. US universities are spitting out more people for Sports Management then engineering. I'm all for immigration and smart people getting work, don't get me wrong. My own father immigrated to the states in 1990 from Poland to work as a chemist. But right now, we need to build up our own bulk of engineers to be able to stay on top of the competition from nations like the Chinese. We are losing the tech wars, US used to dominate. This country needs a sputnik from some competing nation so we can start putting money back into the sciences.

[joelam888]

MS H1b is paid 70-90k

They're mostly foreign students from top 50 US universities.

[CatoTheCensor]

As a Microsoft alumnus...

I can tell you that Bill Gates wants more H-1B visa holders for the simple reason that these people, once hired, are captive labor. They cannot change companies, or even jobs, without losing their H-1B status and leaving the United States.<br /><br />There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of H-1B developers inside Microsoft who would love to go to Google or a startup company, but they are trapped. Now, Microsoft is a decent company so these people are paid competitively and are just as eligible for stock awards and bonuses as anyone, but they cannot move until they get their green cards. They are captive labor, and Bill Gates wants more of them.<br /><br />These guys are the cream of the crop and often as good or better than their US counterparts, but Microsoft achieves lower labor costs and a more stable workforce. This only costs US programmers money and opportunity.<br /><br />I say we should increase the H-1B program for smart people, but eliminate the requirement that they stay "indentured" to the company that brought them here. This would increase the pool of smart engineers in the US (a good thing), but eliminate the captivity of people to a single company.

[plee9]

This is not true

I've seen people switching companies when they were on H1. As long as job title is similar, you can switch companies.

[jazzbythebay]

Perhaps one of the smartest answer here...

Although your understanding is not completely correct - folks on H1B visas can in fact change jobs as they wish, but it's not as easy. Barriers:<br />- new employer needs to file a new H1B petition, involving considerable time and expense, generally involving services of a law firm/attorney<br />- if the applicant is in the middle of his/her **really long and painful** permanent residency (Green Card) process, it may reset the whole process and put him/her back to the end of the queue.<br /><br />However, the solution is the one that makes more sense, and may **quickly** resolve any issues with disparity in salaries for such positions by making the H1B portable after the initial approval.<br /><br />In other words, if these folks have gone through the process and applied for a visa and been approved, after the first approval the visas should be made employer-independent, and so should the process of granting permanent residence (green cards).<br /><br />This will allow such workers to move around freely, and change jobs at will. As long as the new job is in the same field, not only should mobility be allowed, it should be encouraged. This should include upward mobility as well, in terms of promotions and salary increases.

[joelam888]

Sounds logical

to the part you mentioned about the freedom of the H-1B workers.<br /><br />Once H-1B workers have virtually no constraints, H-1B abuse will likely disappear.

[shingwong2]

Spot on

I was held captive by my former employer until I got my green card too.<br /><br />MS at least pay "average" salary, my last employer lower my level to meet the requirement.<br /><br />The best part of H1-B is people are less likely to move around, and they are more "stable".

[Lee in San Diego]

Bill should hire

Seriously Bill should first hire a competent barber, foreign or <br />domestic.

[AlanGreenspan]

Ballmer makes $500K, MS engineer makes $110K

Right Gates ... we believe what you say. Gates lied a lot. If you want to attract more engineers, put out the money punk. Microsoft profit is $14B, cash $19.9B, and Steve Ballmer makes $500K. If Gates are concerned about hiring great engineers, increase their salary to $500K like Steve Ballmer salary and you'll see a lot of people will switch to learning computer science. The problem with the computer science market today is people like Bill Gates and CEO of high tech companies like to students in college about the high paying jobs in Computer Science but when they come out, none of them are willing to hire them. This feed back in to the market and had students disbelief a**holes corporate CEOs and chairman.<br /><br />Gates, have you ever think for a bit, you are selfish bastard that people don't believe as much any more?

[plee9]

what?

i got hired after college. i saw some aggressive recruiting for comp sci students. what are you talking about?

[ColdMast]

Ballmer has stocks

that $500K is pocket change for the Great Big &#38; Sweaty.

[joelam888]

No common sense

Salary alone only attacts high school dropouts who dream big.

[cnetnewskat]

He's not looking hard enough- just wanting cheap labor in-house

Outsourcing now moving to out-in-sourcing?

[plee9]

you are talking about different issue.

MS engineers are paid a lot higher than the average.

[lwp13]

Has not Helped his Software

Obviously Bill Gates is blowing smoke, since there is much better software available for much better prices or free. Linux and Open Source is a much better model than Microsoft, which has been only good for Bill Gates and other useless fat cats, who have been conning and conniving for too long now. Retire already, and sell off your monopoly. You are the biggest detriment to the software industry.

[paulej]

I would not go that far...

I like Windows and I think Microsoft has done a remarkable job at pushing technology forward. I fully agree that much of the technlogy that they have popularized was not invented at Microsoft, but that is not unusual for any large company. What is important is that they truly have tried to do things to make computing more enjoyable and usable by everybody.<br /><br />I would consider giving a Mac or Windows PC to my mother to use, but I would certainly not give her a Linux machine. I love Linux and use it daily, but I know it well enough to know that she would need daily technical support.<br /><br />Say what you will, but I personally think Bill has been a very positive force in the computer industry.<br /><br />And, as strange as it might sound, Linux owes a lot of thanks to Microsoft. Without Microsoft, there would not have been all of those standard Wintel platforms out there upon which Linux could be built. Linux enjoys the benefits of using a lot of technologies designed initially for Windows and the Wintel platform.

[CompEng]

I don't think that's fair

Microsoft has done a lot of good and bad. On the other hand, my home machine runs Ubuntu and I do prefer it for everything but games (and it's not horrid there either). I think FOSS has an important role to play in making sure that the wide array of software companies like M$ can't charge for yesterday's innovations. But that doesn't mean they've never contributed anything.<br /> After all, the linux desktop looks an awful lot like Windows/MacOS.

[ToddWBeaver]

Auction the Visas

Have a public auction for the H1-B visas. Start bidding at $10K. If they are all sold, then perhaps we need more. <br /><br />Also, allow fewer people with bachelor's degrees to participate. These visas are supposed to be used for people with advanced skills, not somebody just out of college with little experience.

[bwvla]

Two Great Ideas!

I agree totally on both points<br /><br />An auction would be an open market solution. This would show the value of the demand. The income form this could also be directly diverted to worker retraining programs to help support American workers.<br /><br /><br />As for raising the education requirement. Companies say they are looking for the best and the brightest, then thats all they should have to choose from.

[lwp13]

Monopolies like Microsoft Are Bad for Tech

Their illegal and anti-competitive practices have done more harm to the software industry than any other company. It is a shame to see him parading around like some respectable person in Washington.

[keith.r.benedict]

No kidding

I'm just glad they didn't bring in the worst monopolist this decade: Steve Jobs.

[joelam888]

This is not about Microsoft, it's about the industry.

Silicon Valley is not Silicon Valley without immigrants in the last few decades.

[jennemede]

Hullo, 1992 called...

...and wants its issues back. Get with the times man.

[dargon19888]

What a crock...

Wanted Senior Software engineer in Silicon valley.<br />Pay? 75K.<br /><br />No takers?<br /><br />Geez it must be that we don't have enough skilled workers so we need to bring in more H1B visas.<br /><br />Oh yeah, these companies game the system.

[wlamia]

Slightly off-topic -- wonder how many H1B's Boeing has

Boeing is livid about the USAF tanker deal going to Northrop Grumman and EADS, complaining about lost US jobs. If Boeing has &gt;1 H1B employees, they are in the same league as Eliot Spitzer.

[MRMOAV]

Bill and US companies...THEN TRAIN US AMERICANS

There are hundreds of jobs I would love to have from RN to CNC <br />machinist to Linesman to nuclear engineer. The problem is that I <br />don't have the training to get into these jobs. It seems that all <br />the apprenticeships that we had in the early years have disappeared. Companies just don't want to train someone that <br />has no training. There are thousands of people that given the <br />chance would be a great fit, but US companies care only about <br />the bottom line and training someone is just to risky of an <br />investment. It's a shame what our country has turned into.

[CompEng]

What an opportunity!

Someone could make a killing by providing proper education. The biggest problem with American education, even to some extent in Universities, is that it's not geared towards providing jobs. It's primarily built around legacy education goals that have evolved since the 12th century or so.<br /> Not everybody should get a liberal education or be a Renaissance man. Things are moving towards fast accredited education in very specific careers.<br /> You'd think Challenger and job placement businesses would be using modern data mining and advertising techniques to connect the dots and make a killing here.

[The_Decider]

How long were these apprentiships?

Certainly not years, and in the case of highly skilled PH.d's, a decade or so.<br /><br />A lineman can learn his trade as an apprentice. My father did that, and made a lot of money.<br /><br />A cabinet maker can learn his trade on the job.<br /><br />The oil change guy at Wal-Mart can learn on the job.<br /><br />A nuclear physicist can not.<br /><br />An electrical engineer can not.<br /><br />A computer scientist can not.<br /><br />These are not fields that one can simply pick up, They require a lot of mathematics and other background knowledge and years of training.<br /><br />This is why universities exist, because business is not equipped to deal with education at this level.<br /><br />Very few people have the background to do these jobs. You really think 40 year old Joe Sixpack who spent 20 years changing oil could understand Calculus, much less be successful at it? Maybe one in a thousand of Mr. Sixpacks could. And if he wanted to get into a high tech job, he could certainly get a BS.<br /><br />If you want the training to be a nurse, you go to nursing school! That you would even compare these fields with apprenticeships of the past shows you probably don't have what it takes to be successful in these areas.

[Meerkat71]

it's your responsibilty

Take responsibility for your own education. Why does someone else need to pay for you? <br /><br />Analogy: <br /><br />If your father is an alcoholic, does it mean that you have to be one too, or do you have the choice to determine your own future?

[joelam888]

Train A students, not C students

Are you A or C?