Bill Gates to Congress: Let us hire more foreigners
Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates urged Congress to commit to increased visa caps and greater investments in research and education during an appearance before the U.S. House of Representatives Science and Technlogy Committee.
(Credit: Anne Broache/CNET News.com)WASHINGTON--For the second year in a row, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates ventured to Capitol Hill and urged Congress to let more foreign-born engineers work in the United States and to direct larger numbers of tax dollars to research and education.
Just as he did around the same time last year before a U.S. Senate committee, Gates on Wednesday contended America's competitiveness in the global economy is "at risk." He said Congress, the administration, and the next president must commit to overhauling immigration policy and encouraging both public and private research investment.
"It makes no sense to educate people in our universities, often subsidized by U.S. taxpayers, and then insist they return home," he told the House of Representatives Science and Technology Committee during a two-hour hearing.
The hearing was convened, and Gates invited, to mark the committee's 50th anniversary. The occasion alone foreshadowed an exchange of pleasantries that consumed most of the event.
For example, Committee Chairman Bart Gordon (D-Tenn.) requested advice, from one father of a 7-year-old daughter to another, about what sort of hardware and software might help her adapt to the new world. (Gates, for the record, gave a whimsical endorsement of the Internet's power to answer all those questions that his parents would have had to leave unanswered back in the day.)
And Republican Ranking Member Ralph Hall (R-Texas), who posed a number of questions about skills needed by engineers in the tech space, made Gates a practically unheard-of concession: "You can take any or all of those (questions) or none of them."
Members of the House Science and Technology Committee listen to Bill Gates' advice on getting children more interested in those fields.
(Credit: Anne Broache/CNET News.com)One notable exception to the friendly reception, however, came when Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) used his five allotted minutes to grill Gates on the merits of visa cap increases. "Will it not hurt those countries and will it also not depress wages for people in our own country?" the congressman asked.
"No," the Microsoft chairman responded sharply. "These top people are going to be hired. It's just a question of where."
Rohrabacher said he's not talking about "top" students. He's concerned about the B and C American students who "fought for our country and kept it free." There's no excuse, he argued, for displacing those people with "A students from India."
An audibly irritated Gates replied that when companies like Microsoft hire top foreign engineers, they create jobs for B and C American students around them. If Microsoft weren't able to hire those top engineers in the United States, it'd be doing so in other countries and surrounding them with native B and C students, he said.
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Rohrabacher argued that if companies like Microsoft simply raised wages, they'd find plenty of Americans lining up for those jobs.
"No, it's not an issue of raising wages," Gates retorted. "These jobs are very, very high paying jobs."
Earlier in his remarks, Gates said Microsoft was unable to hire one-third of the foreign-born candidates it wished to hire because of too few H-1B visas. In an attempt to show a shortage of qualified Americans to fill his company's posts, he pointed to a 2008 National Science Foundation study that found in 2005, 59 percent of all doctoral degrees and 43 percent of all higher-education degrees in engineering and science are awarded to temporary residents.
Gates also suggested the U.S. government's stance toward high-skilled foreigners is absurd in comparison with other countries. He pointed out Microsoft's decision last year to open an outpost just over the Canadian border from Washington as a sort of refuge for foreign-born employees for whom it couldn't obtain U.S. visas.
Rohrabacher's badgering isn't just talk: He has sponsored a bill that would require employers to prove they're not displacing American workers and fulfill other obligations before obtaining H-1Bs, as have two U.S. senators.
Such efforts enjoy support from groups representing American computer programmers, such as the Programmers Guild, which continue to argue that the worker shortages described by Gates and other high-tech executives in recent years are bogus.
Ron Hira, a public policy professor at the Rochester Institute of Technology and author of the book Outsourcing America, told CNET News.com on Wednesday that it's wrong for Gates to imply that most H-1Bs are going to the brightest foreigners with advanced degrees and earning them big bucks. According to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the typical H-1B holder holds a bachelor's degree and is making a median salary of $50,000. And the same NSF report referenced by Gates says less than 1 percent of H-1B recipients in computer-related professions even hold doctoral degrees, and about 44 percent hold master's degrees.
Still, politicians with a skeptical view of visa expansion appear to be largely the exception in Congress. Other members from both political parties at Wednesday's hearing suggested Gates' push for a more liberal immigration policy was right on.
Whether those long-sought changes will occur this year remains unclear. Attempts to overhaul the immigration system collapsed last year, and with them went efforts to hike the number of H-1B visas and green cards.
To be fair, Gates emphasized that changes in immigration alone aren't enough. He repeatedly called for improvements in training American teachers and students in science and technology fields at all levels, from kindergartens to universities.
Few in Congress seem to disagree with Gates' push for greater investments in research and education. Last year, the president signed a measure called the America Competes Act into law, which calls for pouring some $33.6 billion into a bevy of federal science, technology and research programs. Members of the Science Committee said they would be pressuring appropriations committees to ensure the target funding amounts are fulfilled in the final budget.
Throughout the hearing, Gates repeatedly received praise for his work through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. But at least one member, Rep. Laura Richardson (D-Calif.), who represents what she called the "challenging communities" of Watts, Compton, and Long Beach, clearly wanted Gates to be even more generous. She pressed the billionaire philanthropist to commit to sponsoring more scholarships with guaranteed jobs at companies like his waiting after a university degree is obtained.
Gates said he agrees scholarships are important, but he wasn't willing to go as far as Richardson had wished.
"There's just no shortage of jobs being offered to those top students in computer science," he said. "They are highly sought after."
companies in the USA would hire and train people for their jobs.
Whether it was industry, science or entertainment. Now they just
want to hire people who already have experience, as if that
experience comes miraculously from the either. If MS wants more
qualified people, invest in them. And I don't mean building
another castle at Stanford.
Put yourself in a business owner's shoes. Why would your company pay extra money to train and educate an American when he can hire a more talented foreign worker for the same amount of money? No business is going to spend more money just to get a "US Citizen" working for them -- it makes no sense.
He's giving Congress a chance to fix this problem. They first have to realize a problem exists.
The other option is to close the door on foreigners and they'll build the next multi-billion dollar web starts outside the US, then the US citizens, whom you praise for having some sort of 'higher rank' in society, won't have a job at all.
Cheers.
Further, US companies should be required to train their own workers at their own expense. If they want to 'beat' other countries in intellectual achievements, they should educate their workers well.
I hate to borrow a Russian term, but many US business leaders have become what they called Klepto-Capitalists who think they 'deserve' money due to their privileged position in society and owe nothing in return.
Before Bill Gates asks for more H1B visas, he needs to spend some time reflecting on what it means to be an American and the duties and responsibilities associated with that concept.
To be fair to MS, they do offer a lot of scholarships but as far as I know, they do not have job offers attached to them.
Computer Science is a highly skilled field that few can successfully complete, asking a corporation to bear the burden of training, even one as rich as MS is asking way to much.
for 25 pesos an hour."
Besides the "peso" people is doing all the work that Americans think are below them.
Don't tell us it equals to 25 pesos unless the USD really drops to that level, LOL!!!
MS want to hire people with formal training (college) rather than self taught programmer. I once knew an excellent device driver developer that wast denied a job in MS because his undergrad degree was chemical engineering.
The best software guy I know came from EE and ME, they see the big picture rather than a couple lines of code and the fancy "object oriented" methods.
Oh my god. since when did a US senator care about whether other countries are hurt?
This is what's wrong with this country. old republicans with outdated thoughts trying to claim that companies should hire only americans.
talents exist everywhere, not just in america. companies should be able to hire whomever they please in order to compete against other companies, especially foreign companies. it's not a matter of favoritism towards foreign students. if there are talented american students, they should be hired too. it's a matter of choice. companies should at least have that choice, this republican is fighting that ability to choose.
It's a known fact that foreign born people are more willing to take a lower wage, even UNDER THE MINIMUM WAGE, because the companies can hold their visa status over them and get them to do that.
Secondly, the reason that 'talented American students' are not getting this education is simple: IT IS TOO ******* EXPENSIVE!
In order to get my certifications for a job with an IT company, I would have had to get a loan for a little under 30,000 dollars.... way too expensive. They need to cut down on the prices for education and start looking at these prices that different colleges are charging, because I think they are doing a little bit of price gouging.
I have no problem with foreign workers over here in the United States.... but it should be 'American citizens first!', just like China, Russia, and almost all other countries do.
Ever wondered where your free education comes from? How bout you have to pay a $1000.00 a year for a public school, what would you say then?
There are nativist sentiments in both parties
Hiring more foreign-born skilled workers was proposed as a complimentary measure, not the ultimate solution.
Though I suppose it wouldn't make the headlines then.
Journalism is indeed the second oldest profession.
58,000,000,000 minus 100,000,000 (for retirement) divided by
300,000,000 (US taxpayers) equals $193/person (US Dollars).
Then again he could also give to the rest of the world for his
reasons.
Fine. So stop educating them. Our colleges are already overcrowded. Stop granting foreign student visa's (or limit them) and it solves three problems:
1) We don't have to worry about subsidizing the education of foreign students
2) We don't have to worry about foreign students going home and making their country more competitive than ours when they finish school
3) We have more space for US-born students
where the overcrowding is. The issue is with graduate education
- people receiving Master and doctoral degrees. Almost all of
the research performed at universities these days is performed
by graduate students, which are primarily foreigners. Why
foreigners? Because the typical American in science or
engineering isn't going to give up a lucrative paycheck from
industry (40-60K+) with their B.S degree to work for ~$20K for
3-5 years in order to get their graduate degree. Start investing
more in graduate education for U.S. citizens besides just
scholarship programs for the cream of the crop and then more
americans will make the decision to pursue advanced degrees.
What makes me qualified to say all this? I'm a 5th year U.S.
citizen PhD student and so is my husband, both in the
sciences/engineering. We are far below our peers in terms of
income and quality of living because we made the decision to
pursue an advanced degree - on a purely financial basis, it's not
clear that an advanced degree is worth it - you don't get the
benefits of being an employee (like retirement benefits, family
leave policies, etc) when you're a graduate student.
Doctors are thrown into the mix of h1b visas and its a lottery so the best are not necessarily picked.
Bill gates is a big liar.
Because the quote is filled up on the first day of application! Isn?t that Bill?s point? There are 20,000 for applicant with advanced degree and even that is used up pretty quickly.
What good is being patriotic, if you can't speak the wrong the senators are doing or the harm they are causing.
Let's not fool anyone; America is losing its edge. It is absolutely true of him (Bill Gates) and the way I look at it is "Talent like Money goes where it is required and will STAY there if it is respected." This is Capitalism at its best.
The trouble with the country and has been over the past decade, is the government, it is out there to rob the citizens, and the citizens are busy deciding who should be voted off The Apprentice or American Idol.
Every day I think of how the founding fathers of my country are turning in their graves. What they set out to make this country and what it has turned into. Greed has spread into the very DNA of us, including me.
Finally, Yes Mr. Gates has a valid point to make. ?They will get hired, the question is Where?? If America absolutely believes it is the land of the free and home of the brave, then I say let them (foreigners) come.
This is NOT capitalism at its best. This is capitalism at its worst. The only way for us to compete with these people is to lower our own standard of living. I'm not willing to do that and I think most Americans probably feel similarly.
It's like the NAFTA backers saying they are free-marketers. Gimme a break. NAFTA is not about the free market. It's about lowering the cost of labor for big-business so they can increase their profit margins so they can increase share prices for their shareholders.
Again, the only way Americans can compete with our trade partners is to lower our standard of living down to the level of our trade partners. If you want America to become a 3rd world country, then continue with your absurd line of reasoning.
There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of H-1B developers inside Microsoft who would love to go to Google or a startup company, but they are trapped. Now, Microsoft is a decent company so these people are paid competitively and are just as eligible for stock awards and bonuses as anyone, but they cannot move until they get their green cards. They are captive labor, and Bill Gates wants more of them.
These guys are the cream of the crop and often as good or better than their US counterparts, but Microsoft achieves lower labor costs and a more stable workforce. This only costs US programmers money and opportunity.
I say we should increase the H-1B program for smart people, but eliminate the requirement that they stay "indentured" to the company that brought them here. This would increase the pool of smart engineers in the US (a good thing), but eliminate the captivity of people to a single company.
- new employer needs to file a new H1B petition, involving considerable time and expense, generally involving services of a law firm/attorney
- if the applicant is in the middle of his/her **really long and painful** permanent residency (Green Card) process, it may reset the whole process and put him/her back to the end of the queue.
However, the solution is the one that makes more sense, and may **quickly** resolve any issues with disparity in salaries for such positions by making the H1B portable after the initial approval.
In other words, if these folks have gone through the process and applied for a visa and been approved, after the first approval the visas should be made employer-independent, and so should the process of granting permanent residence (green cards).
This will allow such workers to move around freely, and change jobs at will. As long as the new job is in the same field, not only should mobility be allowed, it should be encouraged. This should include upward mobility as well, in terms of promotions and salary increases.
Once H-1B workers have virtually no constraints, H-1B abuse will likely disappear.
MS at least pay "average" salary, my last employer lower my level to meet the requirement.
The best part of H1-B is people are less likely to move around, and they are more "stable".
domestic.
Gates, have you ever think for a bit, you are selfish bastard that people don't believe as much any more?
I would consider giving a Mac or Windows PC to my mother to use, but I would certainly not give her a Linux machine. I love Linux and use it daily, but I know it well enough to know that she would need daily technical support.
Say what you will, but I personally think Bill has been a very positive force in the computer industry.
And, as strange as it might sound, Linux owes a lot of thanks to Microsoft. Without Microsoft, there would not have been all of those standard Wintel platforms out there upon which Linux could be built. Linux enjoys the benefits of using a lot of technologies designed initially for Windows and the Wintel platform.
After all, the linux desktop looks an awful lot like Windows/MacOS.
Also, allow fewer people with bachelor's degrees to participate. These visas are supposed to be used for people with advanced skills, not somebody just out of college with little experience.
An auction would be an open market solution. This would show the value of the demand. The income form this could also be directly diverted to worker retraining programs to help support American workers.
As for raising the education requirement. Companies say they are looking for the best and the brightest, then thats all they should have to choose from.
Pay? 75K.
No takers?
Geez it must be that we don't have enough skilled workers so we need to bring in more H1B visas.
Oh yeah, these companies game the system.
- Bill and US companies...THEN TRAIN US AMERICANS
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by MRMOAV
March 12, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
- There are hundreds of jobs I would love to have from RN to CNC
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Reply to this comment
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- What an opportunity!
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by CompEng
March 12, 2008 3:07 PM PDT
- Someone could make a killing by providing proper education. The biggest problem with American education, even to some extent in Universities, is that it's not geared towards providing jobs. It's primarily built around legacy education goals that have evolved since the 12th century or so.
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- How long were these apprentiships?
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by The_Decider
March 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT
- Certainly not years, and in the case of highly skilled PH.d's, a decade or so.
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- it's your responsibilty
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by Meerkat71
March 12, 2008 3:15 PM PDT
- Take responsibility for your own education. Why does someone else need to pay for you?
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- Train A students, not C students
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by joelam888
March 12, 2008 5:25 PM PDT
- Are you A or C?
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Showing 1 of 4 pages (286 Comments)machinist to Linesman to nuclear engineer. The problem is that I
don't have the training to get into these jobs. It seems that all
the apprenticeships that we had in the early years have disappeared. Companies just don't want to train someone that
has no training. There are thousands of people that given the
chance would be a great fit, but US companies care only about
the bottom line and training someone is just to risky of an
investment. It's a shame what our country has turned into.
Not everybody should get a liberal education or be a Renaissance man. Things are moving towards fast accredited education in very specific careers.
You'd think Challenger and job placement businesses would be using modern data mining and advertising techniques to connect the dots and make a killing here.
A lineman can learn his trade as an apprentice. My father did that, and made a lot of money.
A cabinet maker can learn his trade on the job.
The oil change guy at Wal-Mart can learn on the job.
A nuclear physicist can not.
An electrical engineer can not.
A computer scientist can not.
These are not fields that one can simply pick up, They require a lot of mathematics and other background knowledge and years of training.
This is why universities exist, because business is not equipped to deal with education at this level.
Very few people have the background to do these jobs. You really think 40 year old Joe Sixpack who spent 20 years changing oil could understand Calculus, much less be successful at it? Maybe one in a thousand of Mr. Sixpacks could. And if he wanted to get into a high tech job, he could certainly get a BS.
If you want the training to be a nurse, you go to nursing school! That you would even compare these fields with apprenticeships of the past shows you probably don't have what it takes to be successful in these areas.
Analogy:
If your father is an alcoholic, does it mean that you have to be one too, or do you have the choice to determine your own future?